FSD Beta 10.12

[sleepydoc]

Agreed, BUT, Tesla doesnt require you to have your hands on the wheel at all. They intentionally coded the software to allow you to simply increase or decrease the stereo volume with the scroll wheel to override the nag. If they went that far, seems like they would also just let the interior camera (on cars so equipped) monitor you like some other car companies do with their enhanced driving (notice I didnt say autopilot) features.

All of these are simply the various methods that Tesla tries to use to make sure you’re paying attention. I’ve seen people post things as stupid as “all tesla ‘requires’ is pressure on the steering wheel, so a weight satisfies that requirement.” Say what? No, they require that you are awake and paying attention. Detecting torque on the steering wheel, interacting with the steering wheel controls and image analysis by the cabin camera are all surrogates that they use and remember, the increasing number of these is all in response to people being irresponsible and bypassing the methods.

Just because you can put a weight in the seat, a dummy buckle in the seatbelt clip and a weight on the steering wheel doesn’t mean it’s ok to use Autopilot without sitting in the front seat. It just means you’re so set on bypassing the safety mechanisms that Tesla had to develop the cabin camera.

Go back and read the disclaimer that you need to agree to when you activate autopilot (or FSD beta) - it’s pretty clear what Tesla requires.

You can also learn just the right amount of steady pressure (no wiggling) by keeping your hand hanging on the side/bottom of the wheel. There is a point where it is enough to register as hands on wheel but not enough to disengage FSD (works the same on Navigate on Autopilot.)

I actually use a combination of hanging hand pressure and hands off and moving the scroll wheels. Just depends on what I am feeling at the moment.

After 2 years I still can’t do that consistently. I routinely get nags when I think I’m putting pressure on the wheel because I’m apparently not putting enough pressure on it.

 

[sleepydoc]

Thanks. Yeah I had gotten to the point of noticing i could move the wheel sufficiently to not disengage AP (and not change car direction) yet still satisfy the nanny. I'll probably use a combination of both as well.

First time using FSDb a few minutes ago. I wasn't comfortable letting it do very much, but I did notice it tried to change into the right lane with a left turn imminent. I know that's been much discussed.

Yup. Lane selection and planning is a bit better with the current version but remain an issue. With experience you learn what FSDb does well and what it doesn’t And become more comfortable with it. Part of that issue with lane selection is a tendency to dive over into turn lanes instead of going straight. The areas that cause problems are very repeatable so I’ve learned where to expect problems in areas I frequent.

Interestingly, it seems to have improved over time with the latest version. Others have reported this as well. I’m not sure if this has to do with the neural net or with updated maps data Or something else.

 

[EVNow]

Got a new message ! This is a multi-lane roundabout I always have problem with. Now there is some construction going on at the roundabout too.

"Autopilot speed limited due to poor visibility"

 

[Oil Freedom]

I just wish, wish, wish they would remove the tug on the wheel requirement where the camera is watching if you are paying attention. That would be awesome!

I look forward to that, but FSD Beta isn't there yet. I've experienced sudden and unexpected deviations from my lane on surface streets. They happened so quickly that if I hadn't already had my hand on the wheel, things could've gotten ugly.

 

[LincolnsDoctor]

I look forward to that, but FSD Beta isn't there yet. I've experienced sudden and unexpected deviations from my lane on surface streets. They happened so quickly that if I hadn't already had my hand on the wheel, things could've gotten ugly.

For some of us the tug on wheel requirement is of no value. After 30K miles of miles of driving on Autopilot, and countless nags, the false positive rate for the nag is still essentially 100%. In contrast the camera does occasionally notice when I am not paying attention (but mostly it doesn't like me scratching my head)

 

[JulienW]

I look forward to that, but FSD Beta isn't there yet. I've experienced sudden and unexpected deviations from my lane on surface streets. They happened so quickly that if I hadn't already had my hand on the wheel, things could've gotten ugly.

A capacitance sensor in the wheel would be ideal.

 

[sleepydoc]

A capacitance sensor in the wheel would be ideal.

Agreed, or a simple weight sensor on the steering column so it would sense the weight of your hand rather than the torque. All of these can be easily defeated and as annoying as it is, the one positive thing about the wheel requiring intermittent torque is it requires some level of attention just to do it.

The single biggest factor is whether you're paying attention. If you're not paying attention, the time needed to asses the situation and your surroundings and respond appropriately dwarfs the time needed to grab the wheel. If you are paying attention you already know what you need to do without even thinking.

 

[EVNow]

For some of us the tug on wheel requirement is of no value. After 30K miles of miles of driving on Autopilot, and countless nags, the false positive rate for the nag is still essentially 100%. In contrast the camera does occasionally notice when I am not paying attention (but mostly it doesn't like me scratching my head)

Do you mean you get a nag even when the hands are on the wheel ?

You can defeat that by applying a slight torque on the wheel once in a while. I find it easier to do that when I get the nag.

With FSD Beta, I can't even imagine why anyone would not have atleast one hand on the wheel all the time. AT intersections, definitely we need both hands on the wheel.

 

[LincolnsDoctor]

Do you mean you get a nag even when the hands are on the wheel ?

You can defeat that by applying a slight torque on the wheel once in a while. I find it easier to do that when I get the nag.

With FSD Beta, I can't even imagine why anyone would not have atleast one hand on the wheel all the time. AT intersections, definitely we need both hands on the wheel.

Yes, with both hands on the wheel I still get the nag. The tug usually, but not always, makes it go away. After 3 years of using Autopilot. My previous car was a Subaru with Eyesight and it rarely complained. Maybe I have a hypersensitive ( or insensitive? ) car and never realized?

 

[Supcom]

Yes, with both hands on the wheel I still get the nag. The tug usually, but not always, makes it go away. After 3 years of using Autopilot. My previous car was a Subaru with Eyesight and it rarely complained. Maybe I have a hypersensitive ( or insensitive? ) car and never realized?

Occasionally, my car stops recognizing wheel torque as well as the steering wheel buttons for attentiveness. I just disconnect and reconnect and it clears up.

 

[MarcG]

Yes, I am very familiar with the FSD beta monitor features. But basic AP does not (yet) require the camera, though I expect that eventually it will for those with camera-equipped cars.

Yep, agreed - I think at some point codes will be merged so even if you’re just using AP and haven’t purchased FSD, the camera will be used to monitor attentiveness.

Whether they will remove the need to tug the wheel/yoke once in a while is to be seen, but given there are easy “hacks” out there (weight on one side), I wouldn’t be surprised if Tesla moves to camera monitoring only at some point.

 

[JulienW]

.....I wouldn’t be surprised if Tesla moves to camera monitoring only at some point.

The main problem is other companies are using IR sensor cameras. Tesla is trying to "repurpose" a standard camera and use "Deep Rain" type algorithms to determine eye location. Can they ever gather enough photons in the visible light spectrum (or more correctly the more limited color space and dynamic range of the camera) to determine eye location under all the various lighting conditions, glasses worn, glare, etc?

Like auto windshield wipers and auto high beams this is probably another case where using the detected, job specific sensor can be a HUGE benefit.

 

[boonedocks]

Yes, with both hands on the wheel I still get the nag. The tug usually, but not always, makes it go away. After 3 years of using Autopilot. My previous car was a Subaru with Eyesight and it rarely complained. Maybe I have a hypersensitive ( or insensitive? ) car and never realized?

The problem with Teslas sensing scenario is it encourages bad driving habits steering wheel holding.

If you have both hands on the steering wheel in the proper place there is “hardly” ever any torque on either side. A major flaw as a 4 time Model S owner I can say as fact.

I drive the same 40 miles of (mostly) straight expressway and have had this same issue in all 4 S’

 

[EVNow]

Yes, with both hands on the wheel I still get the nag. The tug usually, but not always, makes it go away. After 3 years of using Autopilot. My previous car was a Subaru with Eyesight and it rarely complained. Maybe I have a hypersensitive ( or insensitive? ) car and never realized?

I get the nag all the time. I’ve just got used to tugging when the nag comes.

Earlier I used to jiggle the wheel - which wasn’t effective always. Now I just tug and hold for a second. It’s 100% effective.

BTW, on vehicles with scroll wheels, moving them up/down works as well.

 

[DrGriz]

I get the nag all the time. I’ve just got used to tugging when the nag comes.

Earlier I used to jiggle the wheel - which wasn’t effective always. Now I just tug and hold for a second. It’s 100% effective.

BTW, on vehicles with scroll wheels, moving them up/down works as well.

I have learned to hold the wheel with both hands asymmetrically, left hand at 11:00, right hand at 3:00 or 4:00. It isn't always perfect, because you get tired of holding in the same position. But it works and I'll switch sides to make it interesting. At least I don't have to think about tugging all the time.

 

[2101Guy]

Go back and read the disclaimer that you need to agree to when you activate autopilot (or FSD beta) - it’s pretty clear what Tesla requires.

I think we are saying the same thing. Tesla by intentional design, allows you to reset the nag by simply adjusting the stereo volume with the scroll wheel. That isnt an accident by them..thats intentional within their software. You literally are not required to hold the wheel. You can simply adjust the volume..

 

[Dewg]

I think we are saying the same thing. Tesla by intentional design, allows you to reset the nag by simply adjusting the stereo volume with the scroll wheel. That isnt an accident by them..thats intentional within their software. You literally are not required to hold the wheel. You can simply adjust the volume..

Correct, but the point is that people are paying attention. Doesn't matter that you can adjust the volume if you're on your phone or asleep and don't pay attention to the request.

 

[boonedocks]

I have learned to hold the wheel with both hands asymmetrically, left hand at 11:00, right hand at 3:00 or 4:00. It isn't always perfect, because you get tired of holding in the same position. But it works and I'll switch sides to make it interesting. At least I don't have to think about tugging all the time.

Doubly hard holding the steering yoke that way

 

[aronth5]

I just wish, wish, wish they would remove the tug on the wheel requirement where the camera is watching if you are paying attention. That would be awesome!

Perhaps if it worked at least for me.. For me I've intentionally tried to cause the camera to warn me

 

[Yonki]

Has anyone had a problem with FSDb and auto wipers? I drove about 90 miles yesterday in perfectly dry weather, beautiful blue sky with scattered white clouds, and a perfectly clear windshield…and my wipers would start sweeping every 10 seconds or so. This would continue for 15 minutes or so, then stop, then start up again after 30-60 minutes.

And that’s how I found out that when you’re using FSDb, or even TACC, it forces the wipers to be on auto even if you try to turn them off. So I had to choose between FSD/Autopilot/Cruise Control with wipers sweeping a perfectly dry windshield or no assist at all.