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This is how I hold the wheel when FSD Beta is engaged:

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Maybe a little looser than what the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration recommends (see https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/steeringtechniques.pdf) but steering with the fingertips lets me feel as the car steers plus lets me put in just the right amount of torque to let the car know I’m still there without taking over. And it’s easy to just grab the wheel if it starts doing something I don’t like.

The old school recommendation is to hold your hands at 10 o’clock and 2 o’clock. My understanding is that’s no longer recommended because of what happens to your arms when the steering wheel airbag is deployed.
I’ve seen that hand placement recommendation and they’re FOS, IMO. Driving the other day, I looked at the airbag relative to my hands when they were at 9 & 3 and at 10 & 2 and there’s no appreciable difference in how the airbag would hit them. Now, add to that the fact that your hands may likely be in a far different position if you’re turning the wheel at all, (to avoid an accident, for example.) in the end your hand position when the airbag deploys is likely a crapshoot.
 
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I’ve seen that hand placement recommendation and they’re FOS, IMO. Driving the other day, I looked at the airbag relative to my hands when they were at 9 & 3 and at 10 & 2 and there’s no appreciable difference in how the airbag would hit them. Now, add to that the fact that your hands may likely be in a far different position if you’re turning the wheel at all, (to avoid an accident, for example.) in the end your hand position when the airbag deploys is likely a crapshoot.
I tend to disagree with this. At 10-2 when someone gets into an accident situation the first reaction is to Grab tight the wheel with arms extended and leave your arms in front of the air bag and later in your face. Side 9-3 or below would be safer as the airbag is much larger then the wheel deployed.
 
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The old school recommendation is to hold your hands at 10 o’clock and 2 o’clock. My understanding is that’s no longer recommended because of what happens to your arms when the steering wheel airbag is deployed.
9 and 3 seems best, with current airbags and small steering wheels. In that position or very slightly below, the airbag will likely not be an issue; it is just not going to blow your arm into your face, deglove your hand, or amputate it.


The place you have them in your picture provides you very little leverage to make sudden movements, and is not recommended in any situation, though you are obviously completely safe from the airbag. You simply do not have the radius on your arm movement to make quick or accurate steering adjustments, and your body is very poorly braced. Too low, definitely not advised at any time, and certainly never when using FSD. Both hands on the wheel at around 9 and 3! Beyond that, it is just perfecting your steering technique as described in the above link.

You can easily hold the wheel completely as normal (with the annoying exception of having to provide a slight torque offset) when using FSD without causing problems with inadvertent disengagement. You’re just going to be steering along with the system, so fighting it is not an issue (and if it is it will be because you are doing the right thing and the car is doing the wrong thing, so a disengagement is desired). I make a habit of always applying the torque offset in the direction of least consequence/most safety margin (so it can be in either direction, depending on the situation - making this something I am always thinking about keeps me 100% engaged in the driving task - which of course is what I have to be doing since I am driving the car, not FSD!).
 
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9 and 3 seems best, with current airbags and small steering wheels. In that position or very slightly below, the airbag will likely not be an issue; it is just not going to blow your arm into your face, deglove your hand, or amputate it.


The place you have them in your picture provides you very little leverage to make sudden movements, and is not recommended in any situation, though you are obviously completely safe from the airbag. You simply do not have the radius on your arm movement to make quick or accurate steering adjustments, and your body is very poorly braced. Too low, definitely not advised at any time, and certainly never when using FSD. Both hands on the wheel at around 9 and 3! Beyond that, it is just perfecting your steering technique as described in the above link.

You can easily hold the wheel completely as normal (with the annoying exception of having to provide a slight torque offset) when using FSD without causing problems with inadvertent disengagement. You’re just going to be steering along with the system, so fighting it is not an issue (and if it is it will be because you are doing the right thing and the car is doing the wrong thing, so a disengagement is desired). I make a habit of always applying the torque offset in the direction of least consequence/most safety margin (so it can be in either direction, depending on the situation - making this something I am always thinking about keeps me 100% engaged in the driving task - which of course is what I have to be doing since I am driving the car, not FSD!).
All my grandchildren were taught to hold the wheel at 8 and4 in the state of Virginia. The picture is a little lower than that,but used to be called Italian position. Perfectly safe if he knows the shuffle move used with this position. However it does seem to me that it is hard to apply torque from here for the sensor.
 
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9 and 3 seems best, with current airbags and small steering wheels. In that position or very slightly below, the airbag will likely not be an issue; it is just not going to blow your arm into your face, deglove your hand, or amputate it.


The place you have them in your picture provides you very little leverage to make sudden movements, and is not recommended in any situation, though you are obviously completely safe from the airbag. You simply do not have the radius on your arm movement to make quick or accurate steering adjustments, and your body is very poorly braced. Too low, definitely not advised at any time, and certainly never when using FSD. Both hands on the wheel at around 9 and 3! Beyond that, it is just perfecting your steering technique as described in the above link.

You can easily hold the wheel completely as normal (with the annoying exception of having to provide a slight torque offset) when using FSD without causing problems with inadvertent disengagement. You’re just going to be steering along with the system, so fighting it is not an issue (and if it is it will be because you are doing the right thing and the car is doing the wrong thing, so a disengagement is desired). I make a habit of always applying the torque offset in the direction of least consequence/most safety margin (so it can be in either direction, depending on the situation - making this something I am always thinking about keeps me 100% engaged in the driving task - which of course is what I have to be doing since I am driving the car, not FSD!).
I looked at the position of my hands, arms and the airbag the last time I drove my MY - there is no difference in ho the airbag would strike them in the 10-2 vs 9-3 position, and as I said above, any evasive maneuvers you would likely be doing would instantly negate any supposed advantage anyway. 10-2 also has the advantage of being a more comfortable position.

Regarding FSD, I've found that keeping my hands at 10 & 2 (or 9 & 3) never works well anyway. On long straight sections I either don't have enough torque to make it happy or I try to adjust it to get enough steady torque and end up disabling it. If you're turning then all bets are off. Even if you are 'steering with the car,' FSD makes frequent adjustments in the turn and you end up disengaging.

I agree with your approach of applying torque in the safest direction. The problem I run in to is if you're on a 2 lane road and the choice is a head on collision to the left or a steep ravine on the right the choices aren't great! Regardless, staying attentive is the single most important component. If you're paying attention then you're constantly analyzing what's going on, anticipating potential problems and have a escape strategy in mind.
 
All my grandchildren were taught to hold the wheel at 8 and4 in the state of Virginia. The picture is a little lower than that,but used to be called Italian position. Perfectly safe if he knows the shuffle move used with this position. However it does seem to me that it is hard to apply torque from here for the sensor.
try that 8 and 4 with Teslas new yoke. After a few miles your hands and splayed fingers will have to be move back to 9 and 3. LOL
 
I just hang the one hand from the wheel enough to have the computer know I am there, probably in the 5 o'clock position, or the other hand if my seating position gets old. I let the car do the steering, if it's too much for my hand to follow I just let go during the turn which rarely is at a time when it's going to timeout not seeing my hand.

I would defend this usage in that I DIDN'T hit that deer this year despite all of the ADASs ignoring the creature bolting across our path.
 
If you have both hands on the steering wheel in the proper place there is “hardly” ever any torque on either side. A major flaw as a 4 time Model S owner I can 💯💯 say as fact.
Yes, the torque sensing is terrible and it would probably be much better if it detected the presence of two hands on the wheel (I don't know the reasons for why they didn't go with a touch sensor).

However, it's quite easy to hold the wheel properly and apply torque, though obviously a bit annoying. If it weren't possible then it wouldn't be possible to steer when holding the wheel properly! That being said, to avoid fatigue with the constant torque application (which is different than normal driving), it's helpful to brace an elbow on the door arm rest when torquing to the right, or bracing on the center arm rest when torquing to the left. This naturally leaves your hand slightly below the 9 and 3 positions. And it means minimal fatigue, and it is easy to modulate torque (I hear a lot of people going with one hand to prevent torque cancellation, and the bracing method allows you to avoid that less safe position).

(No idea on the yoke. Seems hopeless.)
The picture is a little lower than that,but used to be called Italian position.

It looks pretty clearly to me that it is at 5 and 7 or so, or lower, when looking at the center position of the hands. We cannot just call all positions the same…

I could see 8 and 4, with bottom edge of hands at those positions, as being roughly close to 9 and 3, but that is much different than what is pictured.

In any case you can’t steer the vehicle effectively in the position pictured. Try making a high speed turn with hands in that position! Remember that you have to be ready to react and provide correction to FSD instantly at any time.

there is no difference in ho the airbag would strike them in the 10-2 vs 9-3 position

The airbag tends to be aimed slightly upwards according to the various articles on this, so the design presumably assumes a neutral wheel position for the airbag to work best (if wheel is cranked to left it would tend to come out slightly to the left I guess?). Anyway, it’s a continuum of positions. If your hands are higher on the wheel your arms will be more likely to be lifted by the airbag. So there’s not “no” difference. It’s a small difference, with 10-2 being somewhat higher risk.

I just defer to all the insurance companies and NHTSA on this I guess.

any evasive maneuvers you would likely be doing would instantly negate any supposed advantage anyway.
Many times people just pile into things with no steering input. Likely by far the most common scenario. If your arms are lower on the wheel you’ll be less at risk even if you have applied some steering input because your hand is less likely to be in the way of the airbag.

Regarding FSD, I've found that keeping my hands at 10 & 2 (or 9 & 3) never works well anyway. On long straight sections I either don't have enough torque to make it happy or I try to adjust it to get enough steady torque and end up disabling it

See above for bracing technique which allow you to torque the wheel while maintaining both hands on the wheel without fatigue. It also allows for good control of the amount of torque to apply rather than operating in free space, which is challenging to get right, because it is harder to measure the torque without an “anchor.” And no fear of being above 9 and 3.

Anyway, I have zero strikes and I rarely see warnings to apply torque with this method (when I do see the warning it is because I am not using the method).

If you're turning then all bets are off.

Yeah when turning sharply you’re often having to let the wheel slip a bit (in gradual turns torque can be easily applied), but these are just brief periods and in the beginning and end of the turn you’ll be able to torque. Disengagements are fine in turns in any case; that’s why you’re steering the vehicle! Doesn’t matter for FSD if you disengage! (Just be ready to cancel TACC.)

Again, since you’re driving the vehicle, it’s not difficult to go through the correct motions during corners. If FSD gets it exactly right, you won’t disengage. If it makes a quick correction mid turn and you disengage, no harm done and likely for the best. This happens to me all the time, but it’s nearly always because FSD was not turning correctly.
 
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All my grandchildren were taught to hold the wheel at 8 and 4 in the state of Virginia. The picture is a little lower than that, but used to be called Italian position. Perfectly safe if he knows the shuffle move used with this position. However it does seem to me that it is hard to apply torque from here for the sensor.
"Italian position"? Cool--I didn't know that's what it's called!

The torque sensing algorithm seems to accept/recognize drag when FSD is turning the wheel. So a little bit of finger grip is all that I seem to need; just enough to register as drag but not enough to disconnect.

That's a fine motor skill, which my fingers are better performing than my larger forearm or upper arm muscles. Always holding the wheel in a firm grip would involve contracting those latter muscles.

I also drive with my fingertips as shown when FSD is not engaged. It encourages me to think ahead and drive more smoothly. My wife (who took the picture) and suffers from arthritis praises how smoothly I drive, so there's that. (No, I don't use FSD when she's in the car.)

When I'm startled with my hands in that position, it's a natural reflex for my upper arm and forearm muscles to contract and cause an instant hand clench. That instantly gives me a good firm grip on the wheel. When FSD is engaged, that reflexive firm grip consistently causes a disconnect.
 
Sounds like I am not the typical FSD user.

I learned to drive in the '70s, and didn't have a car with an automatic transmission until 2001. For the first 15 years after I got my license most of my driving was in underpowered cars on twisty mountain roads, so most of the time my left hand was at 12 and my right hand was on the shifter. Otherwise 10 and 2, and of course hand-over-hand turns. When my kids learned to drive I discovered I was doing it all wrong.

Now when, when the car is on Autopilot, unless there is a of lot traffic I have my right hand at either 11 or 5. Also, I spent part of my life learning "sticky hands" martial arts, so I tend to move my arm with the steering wheel unless it going the "wrong" way.

Tomorrow I will try out FSD for the first time on a 300+ mile trip. Hope it will not be too interesting, and I can stay out of FSD jail!
 
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Anyone else having issues with the USB drive for the dash cam? Ever since 10.12, I've been getting the red X on the dash cam icon. The associated message is to check the USB drive. However, that doesn't seem to be the actual problem since I've re-formatted the existing drive and also tried band new ones. The work-around to temporarily fix it seems to be to remove and re-insert. However, it keeps happening and is annoying.
I had an even weirder problem with my USB drive. I had a 1TB Samsung T5 SSD that built up a longish list of sentry video clips. One day FSD beta suddenly stopped working (wouldn’t enable or show vehicle visualizations) and my door windows started individually randomly lowering themselves to the “vent” position while I was away from the car. I googled TMC for similar reports and found someone who fixed things by removing their large SSD drive and replacing it with the originally provided Tesla thumb drive. And sure enough, that fixed my problem.

I intend to clear out and reformat the T5 drive and put it back in the car but haven’t gotten around to it yet.
 
Nope, just the usual. reports of regression, car intentionally turning from the wrong lane, FSD running red lights almost a year after first reported (in broad daylight) at intersections.

The suggested solution to running the red light is to stop reporting it to Tesla, but instead, call the city to ask them politely to change the angle of the stoplight. 🤣 🤣
Assuming we all would be better off adjusting the angle (including non Tesla drivers), then don't you think asking the city to change it is a reasonable solution?
 
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So I’m a complete noob with the beta software. I tried it out for the first time with other cars around today and it would consistently wait too long to move into left turn lanes. It’s not really usable in traffic because everyone else piles into the turn lane before the MY even thinks about moving over.

I know with AP I can initiate a lane change with the turn/blinker switch. Does that carry over to FSD beta too?
 
So I’m a complete noob with the beta software. I tried it out for the first time with other cars around today and it would consistently wait too long to move into left turn lanes. It’s not really usable in traffic because everyone else piles into the turn lane before the MY even thinks about moving over.

I know with AP I can initiate a lane change with the turn/blinker switch. Does that carry over to FSD beta too?

Yes, you can initiate lane changes with the blinker, though it should make changes to lanes as needed when on city streets, but I don't know about actual entries into turn lanes/ center reservations being honored with the manual requests (haven't used in these situations enough). However, it certainly can wait too long when there is traffic around, and even when there is not, it can be inconsistent about entering the turn lane at the appropriate point. It's just not very good at driving (it's quite cautious in these situations which is part of the problem)!

I wouldn't bother trying to use it in heavy traffic. Not worth the hassle; it's much easier to drive yourself. Use it a lot in light traffic situations first so you can understand how it behaves and then you'll know what limitations are being introduced by traffic.
 
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Yes, you can initiate lane changes with the blinker, though it should make changes to lanes as needed when on city streets, but I don't know about actual entries into turn lanes/ center reservations being honored with the manual requests (haven't used in these situations enough). However, it certainly can wait too long when there is traffic around, and even when there is not, it can be inconsistent about entering the turn lane at the appropriate point. It's just not very good at driving (it's quite cautious in these situations which is part of the problem)!

I wouldn't bother trying to use it in heavy traffic. Not worth the hassle; it's much easier to drive yourself. Use it a lot in light traffic situations first so you can understand how it behaves and then you'll know what limitations are being introduced by traffic.
Thanks. Further on in the drive there were two left turn lanes. I was in the rightmost lane with a right turn 1/4 mile up the road. Car was nearly stopped and it decided it wanted to be in the left most turn lane. Fortunately I was holding the wheel and kept it in place.

Anyway not complaining… just understanding it better. Take away is to use it when no one else is around. lol
 
Yes, you can initiate lane changes with the blinker,
Just to be sure I'm not doing something wrong here, can I use FSD beta without entering a Nav destination? As in, start FSD beta on a straight road (no destination entered) & just use the turn signals to make left or right hand turns at intersections to tell FSD where I want to go? I've tried that & it ignores my turn signal input & goes straight.
 
Just to be sure I'm not doing something wrong here, can I use FSD beta without entering a Nav destination? As in, start FSD beta on a straight road (no destination entered) & just use the turn signals to make left or right hand turns at intersections to tell FSD where I want to go? I've tried that & it ignores my turn signal input & goes straight.
No, I was only speaking of lane changes (and not with regard to actual turn lanes), when a destination has been input. I never use FSD without a destination so no idea how it works in that condition.

I was just stating the ability to request lane changes is maintained on city streets when using the beta, at least it is when a destination is present.
 
Just to be sure I'm not doing something wrong here, can I use FSD beta without entering a Nav destination? As in, start FSD beta on a straight road (no destination entered) & just use the turn signals to make left or right hand turns at intersections to tell FSD where I want to go? I've tried that & it ignores my turn signal input & goes straight.
You can change lanes with the signals but I have never had success trying to "force" a turn at an intersection. You can cut off the signal and it may go straight. But given a second or 2 and it goes back to what it wants to do.
 
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You can change lanes with the signals but I have never had success trying to "force" a turn at an intersection. You can cut off the signal and it may go straight. But given a second or 2 and it goes back to what it wants to do.
Thanks JulienW. I'm seeing the same responses as you are. Without entering a destination, I can change lanes via the turn signal, but it won't enter a left hand turn lane & turn left (with FSD beta on). Same for a right turn at a corner from the right lane. It won't turn.