FSD Beta 10.12

[thewishmaster]

some failures from today:
* crested a hill just as a waymo was pulling onto the road; there was plenty of space to slow down and follow the Waymo (almost fully in the lane when I saw it for the first time), but the beta decided it needed to pass the slower-moving car despite the next intersection being imminent.
* turned on autopilot as I approached a raised bus stop that was in between two lanes of traffic (my car in the right-hand lane). As the beta approached the bus stop median it decided it needed to be in the left lane and jerked the steering wheel into the median. No nav-related reasons to change lanes for like a mile at that point. Certain crash if I didn’t intervene.
* kept switching between left and right lanes on a curvy section of the road ”to avoid cones”. I think the lack of shoulders made it think that the concrete barriers on either side of the road were obstructions to dodge.

 

[Supcom]

You cannot influence which roads FSD beta uses through the use of the turn signals. With no route in the nav system, FSD will continue driving down the current street until it must make a turn. At that point, FSD will turn right. I don't know what would happen if the only option is a left turn. Hopefully, it will make the left!

Turn signals ONLY command a lane change, when safe to do so.

 

[sleepydoc]

I can't remember if it was on this thread or on another but there was discussion about FSD 10.12 going through red lights. Someone hypothesized that the frame rate of the digital camera may make it appear that LED traffic lights are blinking, causing the computer to interpret them as blinking red lights (= 4 way stop.)

The other day I was stoped at a red light and actually say the solid red light blink on the Tesla display. I was behind another car so FSD couldn't do anything but this would seem to support the hypothesis.

 

[gregsly]

I finally got FSD Beta on June 7th (10.12.2) and I have to say I'm surprised at how poorly it does on Minneapolis streets. In the areas around my neighborhood I am lucky to make it a single block without an intervention, some serious. I took a 140 mile drive yesterday and it did a lot better on the interstate and on country roads.


Couple of questions comments for now:
I've seen people talk about FSD having wrong default speed for side streets. Minneapolis/St. Paul used to be default 25 recently reduced to 20, yet FSD marks them as 30 which is WAY too fast for neighborhoods where there's often not room for cars to pass each other without negotiating carefully. I haven't found a way to say "default to 20" and I'm guessing that it's a deficiency of the mapping software?

I'm also surprised at how much trouble it has with navigating onramps and offramps currently. My "usual" on ramp and off ramp are both a 100% failure rate for FSD 10.12.2.

And the city paints a solid line between traffic and parking on many streets and wowee, FSD aggressively wants to drive in the parking area unless it is filled with cars. These are the sorts where the curb widens out for a half-a-block for parking and then closes back in for crosswalks or intersections.

I'm happy to be able to be testing and seeing where it is, but it sure is not as good here on Minneapolis streets as I see on a lot of the YouTube FSD Beta videos I watch.

 

[Supcom]

I finally got FSD Beta on June 7th (10.12.2) and I have to say I'm surprised at how poorly it does on Minneapolis streets. In the areas around my neighborhood I am lucky to make it a single block without an intervention, some serious. I took a 140 mile drive yesterday and it did a lot better on the interstate and on country roads.


Couple of questions comments for now:
I've seen people talk about FSD having wrong default speed for side streets. Minneapolis/St. Paul used to be default 25 recently reduced to 20, yet FSD marks them as 30 which is WAY too fast for neighborhoods where there's often not room for cars to pass each other without negotiating carefully. I haven't found a way to say "default to 20" and I'm guessing that it's a deficiency of the mapping software?

I'm also surprised at how much trouble it has with navigating onramps and offramps currently. My "usual" on ramp and off ramp are both a 100% failure rate for FSD 10.12.2.

And the city paints a solid line between traffic and parking on many streets and wowee, FSD aggressively wants to drive in the parking area unless it is filled with cars. These are the sorts where the curb widens out for a half-a-block for parking and then closes back in for crosswalks or intersections.

I'm happy to be able to be testing and seeing where it is, but it sure is not as good here on Minneapolis streets as I see on a lot of the YouTube FSD Beta videos I watch.

On interstates, you are not using FSD beta. And the car generally transitions between FSD beta and AP/NOA when it's on the on/off ramp. So, if oyu have issues getting onto the on ramp or off of the off ramp, it's an FSD beta issue. Otherwise, it's a AP/NOA issue.

Default speed limits seem to be more or less hardcoded and are an issue when the car transitions from arterial to neighborhood street. There is no user setting, so use the scroll wheel to adjust. Once the car sees a speed limit sign, things should settle out.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

There is no user setting, so use the scroll wheel to adjust. Once the car sees a speed limit sign, things should settle out.

Once you get a speed limit sign or the car uses some other method to detect the speed limit, the various user offsets on speed will apply, so you can set up the car to go more slowly (or faster) in residential neighborhoods if that's what's appropriate. Of course you can't do separate settings for highway and city streets & residential, which can be annoying.

I have mine set to 10% over or something like that to keep up with traffic on most streets but this definitely needs to be manually dialed down in residential settings (where I rarely use FSDb (b), unless I want to be entertained or I want to see what all the problems are, because it is nearly useless in those contexts).

 

[sleepydoc]

I finally got FSD Beta on June 7th (10.12.2) and I have to say I'm surprised at how poorly it does on Minneapolis streets. In the areas around my neighborhood I am lucky to make it a single block without an intervention, some serious. I took a 140 mile drive yesterday and it did a lot better on the interstate and on country roads.


Couple of questions comments for now:
I've seen people talk about FSD having wrong default speed for side streets. Minneapolis/St. Paul used to be default 25 recently reduced to 20, yet FSD marks them as 30 which is WAY too fast for neighborhoods where there's often not room for cars to pass each other without negotiating carefully. I haven't found a way to say "default to 20" and I'm guessing that it's a deficiency of the mapping software?

I'm also surprised at how much trouble it has with navigating onramps and offramps currently. My "usual" on ramp and off ramp are both a 100% failure rate for FSD 10.12.2.

And the city paints a solid line between traffic and parking on many streets and wowee, FSD aggressively wants to drive in the parking area unless it is filled with cars. These are the sorts where the curb widens out for a half-a-block for parking and then closes back in for crosswalks or intersections.

I'm happy to be able to be testing and seeing where it is, but it sure is not as good here on Minneapolis streets as I see on a lot of the YouTube FSD Beta videos I watch.

There's some debate about where Tesla gets its map data from. The consensus is a combination of sources including Tom Tom and Open Street Maps. Regardless, when there's a change in the default speed like Minneapolis did a few years ago it takes time for the mapping app to catch up.

As @AlanSubie4Life said, you can set a default offset, either in MPH or as a percent, but you can't vary that. You can use the scroll wheel to change the set speed, however.

 

[sealbeach100d]

You cannot influence which roads FSD beta uses through the use of the turn signals.

Thanks.
I wish FSD would allow left/right turns via turn signals. Would make for some interesting drives. Technically, I bet it could.

 

[Twiglett]

Thanks.
I wish FSD would allow left/right turns via turn signals. Would make for some interesting drives. Technically, I bet it could.

that's one of my pet peeves with the Tesla Nav. Its great most of the time, but doesn't give you route choices and the waypoints mean "stop here".
I've found the nav consistently uses the most economical route, which is often the most annoying/busiest roads and least comfort friendly.
Slow stop/go traffic maybe great for economy but sucks head bobbing frustrations.
Uneconomic, longer, quieter and faster roads are my faves, so I tend to use FSDb without nav now.

 

[sealbeach100d]

Sometimes I just turn off FSD, make a turn to make it take the direction I prefer, then just re-start FSD & it re-routs to the way I prefer to go.

 

[sleepydoc]

It would be nice if the nav system let you choose routes. A hack I’ve used is to add a waypoint to force the route I want and then delete the waypoint when I get close. A bit of a pain but it works.

Otherwise I’ll do what @sealbeach100d does or simply start without navigation, using FSD only to go straight.

 

[wknickless]

Sometimes I just turn off FSD, make a turn to make it take the direction I prefer, then just re-start FSD & it re-routs to the way I prefer to go.

Alternatively, if your preferred route involves not making a turn, you can turn off Navigate by Autopilot until you get through the intersection and the route is recalculated.

 

[MarcG]

A couple of weeks of using FSD in San Francisco, and my main complaint is that at 4-way intersection (where every branch is at 90º for each other), my car is making left turns way too shallow - forcing me to take over every time there's a car to my left waiting for me to complete my turn to go.

Visually, it's doing this:

instead of this:

 

[Jeff N]

A couple of weeks of using FSD in San Francisco, and my main complaint is that at 4-way intersection (where every branch is at 90º for each other), my car is making left turns way too shallow - forcing me to take over every time there's a car to my left waiting for me to complete my turn to go.

Visually, it's doing this:

View attachment 819268

instead of this:

View attachment 819269

I haven’t noticed that when another car is actually present but I do notice shallow turns when there is no adjacent car in the street I am turning into. As in, I allow FSD to make those turns with an adjacent car present and it doesn’t actually crash into it. It may well make some awkward steering adjustments through the turn.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

A couple of weeks of using FSD in San Francisco, and my main complaint is that at 4-way intersection (where every branch is at 90º for each other), my car is making left turns way too shallow - forcing me to take over every time there's a car to my left waiting for me to complete my turn to go.

Visually, it's doing this:

View attachment 819268

instead of this:

View attachment 819269

Yeah, it does that. In my case there aren’t markings, but let’s be honest, it is not hard to take the right line, markings or not.

I used FSD on my way to work today. It’s essentially useless, tapping regen/brakes at multiple lights, etc. Of course it has miles long stretches where it does just fine (as long as they are straight with no lights and no traffic), but overall it’s just useless. As expected, to be clear. This is just a toy/very raw product at this point and it is definitely not intended to be useful. And that’s fine. We’ll see how it looks in two or three years, if there is any ongoing development on this hardware at that point.

Car still cannot make an unprotected left. It insists on coming up too close to the center of the street which impedes traffic turning onto the street I am coming from so I have to disengage every time. If I preposition the car at the right offset it will sometimes make the turn.

It doesn’t seem to have any idea where it is supposed to be on the road.

 

[Dewg]

Yeah, it does that. In my case there aren’t markings, but let’s be honest, it is not hard to take the right line, markings or not.

I used FSD on my way to work today. It’s essentially useless, tapping regen/brakes at multiple lights, etc. Of course it has miles long stretches where it does just fine (as long as they are straight with no lights and no traffic), but overall it’s just useless. As expected, to be clear. This is just a toy/very raw product at this point and it is definitely not intended to be useful. And that’s fine. We’ll see how it looks in two or three years, if there is any ongoing development on this hardware at that point.

Car still cannot make an unprotected left. It insists on coming up too close to the center of the street which impedes traffic turning onto the street I am coming from so I have to disengage every time. If I preposition the car at the right offset it will sometimes make the turn.

It doesn’t seem to have any idea where it is supposed to be on the road.

Is there a way you can test another vehicle - do you have any local friends with FSD Beta? I'm in Orange County, so our roads are pretty similar and I don't have the same experience as you. It does have periodic jerky right turns, but left turns (especially protected lefts) are normally quite smooth. Traffic lights are perfect, as is dealing with other traffic - it did try to run a few red arrow left turns on previous updates, but haven't experienced that this update so far. Lane selection is definitely a problem with this update, but I'm sure it'll get dialed in next update as it was fine previous versions. Even so, it's not like it drives spastically, changing lanes constantly - just occasionally gets stuck trying to pick a lane, usually if there are multiple left turn lanes.

I did have an experience recently where the car turned left onto a 3 lane street, and it always turns into the left-most (#1) lane. It needed to make a right turn at the next light, so it signaled and moved to #2 lane, where there was a Prius who gave plenty of room. Then it immediately signaled again, but a pickup truck wanted to be a schmuck and not let me move over. Finally, just before the light, he backed off a little, and I moved over into the #3. Then the right turn lane appeared, but the truck accelerated and cut over into the turn lane, stopping me from moving into the lane in time. The car sat there with the turn signal on, but couldn't move because of traffic at the red light in the #3 lane. I ended up having to disengage, and then make a hard turn into the right-turn lane. Not sure what would have happened had I left it alone - would it have waited for the green light and then cut into the right turn lane? If there was traffic in that right-turn lane, would it have sat there blocking the #3 lane waiting? Not sure...

I will endeavor to test more unprotected left turns - they are usually out of residential neighborhoods onto side streets.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

do you have any local friends with FSD Beta?

No.

But I’m not sure what I’d be trying to retest. It seems like what I am experiencing is completely normal. It’s not like it is routinely jamming on the brakes (though there are situations where it has done that but it was clear why even though it was unnecessary - like a vehicle in the bike lane). In the case of this morning well before each traffic light on Calle Cristobal near Sorrento Valley it would hesitate and maybe bleed 1-2 mph off the speed as though it were “preparing” for something. Totally not ok. But also not something to panic about. It’s possible some people wouldn’t care. But I do because my wife wants absolutely zero slowing and jerking unless there is a good reason for it. Smoothness is key. No hesitation unless you are planning to slow down.

I’ve taken videos before and reviewed them and in the places I commented on slowdowns they were on the order or just a couple mph. It doesn’t take much, especially if jerk is not minimized. Very important to have it be super smooth.

And why can’t it come to a stop without using the brakes slightly and jerking at the very end? Very mysterious. I routinely come to a stop without touching the brake pedal. It makes for smooth “limo/chauffeur stops.” You apply the brake AFTER you stop…sigh. If you don’t use hold mode, you carefully modulate brake pressure as you come to a halt.

Frankly I don’t care if it can’t deal with complicated stuff for a while but maybe they could execute properly on the simplest possible scenarios and make them silky smooth. Of course this may all be intentional, to reduce routine use of FSD. (And happy side effect is not having to devote resources to it.)

 

[John Nemesh]

Fortunately, not my first Rodeo… Tesla, Pcar, Benz, ATOY, other. of COURSE a disengagement is required, otherwise I’d be IN an intersection mostly likely with EMS attending based on what the circumstance indicates. Sadly. For now, I’ve sent videos, captured dashcams (thank you Tesla for making the accessibility of the dashcam SAVE easier in the most recent builds.!) and often capture with my iPhone what the in car screen is showing to send to Tesla FSDBETA, but to date I have NEVER received any response or indication of receipt and certainly not any follow up to try and reconfirm. MAYBE they come and try and recreate this clear issues/s, MAYBE they incorporate it (doubt it, otherwise it would have been corrected probably in the past 4-5 months) or maybe they either don’t are, are overwhelmed or don’t really have a good process for taking all this information into account, stack ranking it, solving for it, creating prioritizations for remedy and building it into the modeling and software updates. Frankly, as I’ve said above, I am very seriously doubting that the latter is occurring at all.

I’ve run software shops before, and frankly when critical bugs continue to go unresolved over and over you fire the QA director and put the lead Engineer on notice… and if it continues you fire the QA engineer and put the HEAD of engineering on notice.. and after that, you put the whole thing on timeout.

You are not entitled to any kind of response from the engineering team. FULL STOP. You are a TESTER, not an ENGINEER. If you would like to be a Tesla engineer, submit a resume. If you don't like the terms of being a beta tester, opt out and use the public software. My god man, what makes you think you have ANYTHING of value to contribute other than pressing the "report" button when something goes wrong? The hubris in your post is unbearable!

 

[tmoz]

EAP may make a comeback. Musk apparently agrees. FSD hadn't been blowing his socks off lately

 

[LincolnsDoctor]

Drove 360 miles today, mostly interstates and secondary roads, almost all using FSD. I have driven this route before using Autopilot and NOAP, and FSD is a big improvement. That said it definitely needs work.


The really bad: FSD will happily drive past a stopped school bus with flashing red lights and stop sign extended. WTF

The weird: The car would suddenly move into the left lane with the message “Moving out of rightmost lane” without my approval. The third time it did it I realized it was treating the long left exit lanes as a third travel lane, and felt it was important to get out of the right lane ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The bad: While navigating to a store in a mall, it tried to stop on the 4 lane highway near the store when the store was on the other side of a berm, even though the nav had the correct route.

Started making a left hand turn, but spotted some orange cones marking the entrance and stopped in the oncoming lane (Tesla orange cone phobia)

Refused to turn into my gravel driveway

Ignores “no right on red signs”


The good:

Almost no nagging unless I spent too much time looking at the screen.

It recognized and responded correctly to all red lights, green lights, yellow lights and stop signs.

I can drive more than 5 mph over the speed limit on secondary roads using FSD.

It would mostly exit one road and merge onto the next without drama. Traffic was light, so not sure how it would work with heavy traffic.