FSD Beta 10.12

[sleepydoc]

Re: stopping, and using FSD in general, the vas majority of the times it stops just fine. There are times when it brakes a bit harder than I would, and times when it stops a bit early then creeps up to the line but as @Yelobird said, one needs to distinguish between different and unsafe. The current goal is safe. Fine tuning can be done after that. The comparison with a new teenage driver has been made more than once.

Many people have commented on the ‘wife (spouse) acceptance factor.’ My experience with FSDb is that you ten to learn how the system behaves with time and come to expect/anticipate the trouble spots. That plus the fact that you’re in control and know you can take over instantly leads to less anxiety with the system than passengers have. For example, I’m used to the fact that it will jerk the steering wheel during turns as it tries to determine the proper course but it’s not pleasant for passengers. Perhaps the best way to describe it is that FSD at times drives impulsively, or like a ‘spaz’ as my kids would say.

Long term, it’s clearly something that needs to be fixed, but it will eventually be fixed as the algorithms improve. Even now, there are plenty of times ise FSD and my wife doesn’t really know or mind.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

To be clear about my expectations: I definitely am not surprised in the least that this is the current state of the product. I expect it to be this way for years.

From your posts it sounds like you misunderstood that and had the wrong expectations.

No, definitely not. Largely as expected so far. However, I’ll continue to make my observations.

I guess I am a little bit surprised that they aren’t better at being smooth (as you know, one of my primary complaints), since as I said, the car can already do this spectacularly well with no user input whatsoever.

Just want to be straightforward and make sure I accurately describe the experience that others who may be considering joining the program can expect. Probably should have avoided the judgmental “unusable” or “unpleasant” descriptors. Gets everyone fired up! Have to just stick to the facts.

 

[Reddy Kilowatt]

Well I'm having fun at the beach in Ocean City MD. You don't want to be Beta testing here. there are 1000's of pedestrians and cyclist in the down town section. the car always wants to stop, thinking everyone is a jaywalker. I got in the middle lane and did much better, except when someone is running towards a crossing. then the car will stop. I do see flashes of blue pedestrians.

on the north end of town where speeds are higher and congestion is much lower I have a different issue. the jaywalkers run across the 6 lane road with a large median. the car sees them coming and jambs the brakes, just like Phantom braking, but I know what its seeing. I almost got rear ended when a bike cam shooting across traffic.

FSD flat ran a red light. I was in a group of cars, platooning the car in front of me. the lights changed yellow and all the traffic kept going. My car and all the others next to me ran the red light, as well as the line of cars in front of us. Monkey see monkey do? It certainly went with the flow.

I drove 185 miles Sunday to get to the beach, FSD continues to do great. I would disengage to maneuver in heavy traffic on some exits but FSD did not. taping to change lanes was the only thing I did for the most part. Ran in FSD a lot more than AP. Did not treat RT. 50 as a highway and stayed in FSD.

 

[sleepydoc]

Well I'm having fun at the beach in Ocean City MD. You don't want to be Beta testing here. there are 1000's of pedestrians and cyclist in the down town section. the car always wants to stop, thinking everyone is a jaywalker. I got in the middle lane and did much better, except when someone is running towards a crossing. then the car will stop. I do see flashes of blue pedestrians.
.

That situation can be difficult for a human driver to manage and would likely involve a lot of assumptions about human behavior on the driver's part. The problem for Tesla (or autonomous system) is that the negative side of hitting a pedestrian is huge because of publicity it would generate. They necessarily need to be more conservative but in this situation conservative makes it difficult to drive at all.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The current goal is safe.

Not clear that jerky behavior improves safety as far as others running into you. However, the side effect of keeping the driver gripping the wheel with gritted teeth may improve overall safety, which I assume is the intent.

To work today:
Disengaged a lot.
UPL, angled and went too far left as usual. So I disengaged early, re-engaged again in correct position to avoid pissing off people turning left off of main road, and eventually it went sort of decently.
Merged a lot unnecessarily on road with no lane lines due to underground work. Doesn’t seem to understand lanes on an partially marked road like a human does.
Tried to go through a right on red (following along with another lead vehicle which did stop may be why?) without stopping. Stopped and reported. Was a little surprised it did this but disengagement was no problem.
Residential:
Failed to respond defensively to person coming from street on right who was not looking my way and advanced too close to my path. Disengaged. Reported.
Unmarked 2-way stop (or 2-way yield I guess; quite common in residential neighborhoods - one main street with crossing side streets to cul-de-sacs, no markings or stop lines ), tried to sail right through and turn left , no surprise. Intervened. Reported.

Turning definitely improved vs. early builds. But can still be very jerky - jerked completely the wrong way hard to the right during a left turn at one point in response to cones (it turned towards the cones). Disengaged.

Continued distinct lack of smoothness overall of course whenever there are required speed changes. Definitely keeps you alert.

Unable to smoothly deal with cars in front which are departing the lane (into left turn lane). Invariably jams on the brakes at some point. Doesn’t seem to know it can edge right or even change lanes, and sail right around smoothly with minimal slowing.

Approximately 10 disengagements over 20 miles.

 

[Dewg]

An excellent detailed experience, Alan. Let's review:

To work today:
Disengaged a lot.

UPL, angled and went too far left as usual. So I disengaged early, re-engaged again in correct position to avoid pissing off people turning left off of main road, and eventually it went sort of decently. UPLs are definitely a problem, and improving over time. You should have seen them on 10.6. I'm sure they are a priority for future updates.

Merged a lot unnecessarily on road with no lane lines due to underground work. Doesn’t seem to understand lanes on an partially marked road like a human does. Unmarked roads are also difficult right now. It used to center in the middle of the road, treating the entire road as a "lane". In one update it was pretty good about keeping towards the right side, but I think there were issues with parked cars. It seems to want to keep centered again, but will lean right when it detects an oncoming car in order to pass safely.

Tried to go through a right on red (brigading with another lead vehicle may be why?) without stopping. Stopped and reported. Was a little surprised it did this but disengagement was no problem. This is a problem, and good you reported it. I have not experienced this myself, but still not what it should have done.

Residential:
Failed to respond defensively to person coming from street on right who was not looking my way and advanced too close to my path. Disengaged. Reported. You were driving straight, and the person was turning right, into your lane, not paying attention? I've seen similar in residentials myself, and my car has always handled it okay. Usually the person stops, and my car leans left to avoid, and sometimes I've had it hit the brakes and creep if the person stays stopped. I've also had it stop, start to creep, but the other driver took this as permission to go, so he went and the Tesla just stopped until he completed his turn.

Unmarked 2-way stop (or 2-way yield I guess; quite common in residential neighborhoods - one main street with crossing side streets to cul-de-sacs, no markings or stop lines ), tried to sail right through and turn left , no surprise. Intervened. Reported. Not sure about this one. If it's an unmarked stop, with no markings or stop lines, then it's an uncontrolled intersection. Unless you're saying there was no street marking, but there was a clearly visible stop sign on the right. If there was a stop sign, but no street marking, I'm not sure how Tesla responds, as I've not seen this myself. I would hope it reads the sign and stops, though there are no street markings so not sure where it would stop. If there was no stop sign, then it hopefully just follows traffic laws, which for Uncontrolled Intersections are: At intersections that do not have a stop or yield sign: You must yield to those who have already arrived at the intersection and proceed cautiously. If another vehicle arrives at the same time, the right-most vehicle has the right of way. Was there another vehicle at the intersection?

Turning definitely improved vs. early builds. But can still be very jerky - jerked completely the wrong way hard to the right during a left turn at one point in response to cones (it turned towards the cones). Disengaged. I definitely get jerky turns from time to time - as if it's trying to figure out which lane to go into, or not seeing the lane properly as it's completing its turn. I admit that when there are traffic cones and construction around it, I tend to disengage and drive manually until I'm passed the construction. Orange County is under major construction around me, so I avoid certain streets near the freeway widening projects. I just drove this morning where there were cones on the left side for some landscape maintenance, and the car drove past them smoothly, with just a slight lean right in the lane to give them a little room.

Continued distinct lack of smoothness overall of course whenever there are required speed changes. Definitely keeps you alert. I've noticed a definite "jump off the line" when lights turn green, or the car in front moves. Otherwise it seems to handle speed changes pretty well. When the limit increased on a road from 40 to 50, it gradually accelerates to 50. Similarly, when the limit changes from 50 down to 40, it slows down pretty smoothly for me. I've read some people say their cars brake pretty hard when the limit changes downwards. That has not been my experience.

Unable to smoothly deal with cars in front which are departing the lane (into left turn lane). Invariably jams on the brakes at some point. Doesn’t seem to know it can edge right or even change lanes, and sail right around smoothly with minimal slowing. I totally get what you're saying here. I get this frequently when a car in front of me is turning right into a shopping center, etc. The car slows down pretty aggressively as if the car is coming to a stop. And doesn't pick up speed until the car has completed its turn. I think this is something Tesla is working on. I read in previous release notes that they are attempting to shore up their prediction algorithms. I think they are being overly cautious right now, assuming that the guy turning could slam on his brakes towards the end of the turn, and if you were proceeding as if he was completing his turn, you could have a collision. Hopefully improved with future updates.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

You were driving straight, and the person was turning right, into your lane, not paying attention?

Right. The car did not respond in any way. The car was not yet in my lane but typically I would ease off and cover the brake in this situation and be ready to react. Disengaged as soon as I saw the person was not looking to the left when making a right turn (a bit odd), so no idea what it would have done if anything. In the end she looked.

You should have seen them on 10.6

Oh, I did (I think? What was the first round of the release to safety scores?)! Not much improvement so far as far as I can tell.

Was there another vehicle at the intersection?

No, but really no way to tell with sight lines if there was a fast moving (speeding) vehicle. There are no stop signs. Typical behavior would be to slow way down, look for traffic, and turn left without stopping if clear. I sure was not going to assume FSD could see.

 

[Dewg]

Right. The car did not respond in any way. The car was not yet in my lane but typically I would ease off and cover the brake in this situation and be ready to react. Disengaged as soon as I saw the person was not looking to the left when making a right turn (a bit odd), so no idea what it would have done if anything. In the end she looked.

Oh, I did (I think? What was the first round of the release to safety scores?)! Not much improvement so far as far as I can tell.

No, but really no way to tell with sight lines if there was a fast moving (speeding) vehicle. There are no stop signs. Typical behavior would be to slow way down, look for traffic, and turn left without stopping if clear. I sure was not going to assume FSD could see.

It would have likely slammed on the brakes if she completed her turn in front of you. Otherwise, it would have continued normally - I'll bet her car turned blue though to show you it was keeping an eye on her.

UPLs have improved for me, though slightly. It feels a little more confident than the older versions like 10.6 and 10.8.

I'm not sure how it would handle someone speeding in a residential. If the car cannot see them until the last moment, and assumes it has the right of way, then there would likely be a collision. However, that collision would be the speeding person's fault. The alternative would be to have the Tesla do as you suggest and slow way down, being very cautious at each unmarked intersection. I'm sure you would hear screaming from people if that were the case who hate the constant slow downs at each intersection. Most residential speed limits are 25 (some 35 that I've seen, but it's rare). I'm sure the Tesla can handle watching cross traffic at 25MPH. But if the guy is screaming down the other lane at 45+MPH, not sure how Tesla would handle that, but then again, not sure how a human would handle that assuming they are moving along at 25 or 35 and not seeing the speeding car until it's too late.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

However, that collision would be the speeding person's fault.

I have Free Unlimited Supercharging so I don’t care who is at fault, lol. No accidents. I am pretty sure I would be partially at fault. You can’t just proceed into intersections.

The alternative would be to have the Tesla do as you suggest and slow way down, being very cautious at each unmarked intersection. I'm sure you would hear screaming from people if that were the case who hate the constant slow downs at each intersection.

I would prefer it just drive correctly. In this situation you must smoothly slow down prior to entering the intersection to obtain visibility.

Here is the intersection, I turned left onto Ashley Falls from Brookburn Dr (the court side). (Eastbound Brookburn, left onto northbound Ashley Falls.) The car was not going to stop and just was going to turn (AFAIK - I did disengage once it showed no evidence of slowing in time).

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

goo.gl

To me this says Brookburn traffic must yield to through traffic on Ashley Falls regardless of which direction they are coming from. But stopping is not required.

Ashley Falls is clearly the street with priority. This sort of unmarked intersection with clear priority is very common as you know.

But if the guy is screaming down the other lane at 45+MPH, not sure how Tesla would handle that, but then again, not sure how a human would handle that assuming they are moving along at 25 or 35 and not seeing the speeding car until it's too late.

You would check for traffic and check their speed, then proceed. You do not have to come to a complete stop if there is no traffic, 5-10mph would probably be the minimum here to allow looking and assessing both directions, depending on how hard you were willing to hit the brakes if traffic did appear. It depends on the sight lines - there is a wall to the left which obscures early views of the cross street.

 

[Dewg]

I have Free Unlimited Supercharging so I don’t care who is at fault, lol. No accidents. I am pretty sure I would be partially at fault. You can’t just proceed into intersections.


I would prefer it just drive correctly.

Here is the intersection, I turned left onto Ashley Falls from Brookburn Ct. The car was not going to stop and just was going to turn (AFAIK - I did disengage once it showed no evidence of slowing in time).

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

goo.gl

To me this says Brookburn traffic must yield to through traffic on Ashley Falls regardless of which direction they are coming from. But stopping is not required.

As a human driver, I would totally slow down on Ashley while turning onto Brookburn. I'd suggest that the Tesla should do so as well. Make sure you report that, and I'd even go so far as to send a note to the e-mail address with the details that you shared above.

Knowing that the car does this consistently, you should either disengage at these types of intersections, or manually scroll down the speed to 10MPH as you approach.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

As a human driver, I would totally slow down on Ashley while turning onto Brookburn.

I was turning left, onto Ashley Falls northbound, from Brookburn eastbound. The image captures the location just a bit before where I disengaged.

The situation you described (not what I was doing during disengagement, though I did it a minute before):
If I were turning left or right onto Brookburn from Ashley Falls (northbound or southbound), I would assume I had right of way, and would not yield to traffic from Brookburn. I would proceed with caution if vehicles were present, slowing only enough to comfortably make the turn (or for oncoming traffic). Obviously I would rapidly yield to anyone making a move into the intersection in error. FSD did this turn without stopping a few minutes prior as it turned right onto Brookburn from Ashley Falls (on my way in to the cul-de-sac). And if I were going straight on Ashley Falls I would proceed at 25mph without yielding to anyone. It’s unsigned but I would have right of way.

This is obviously how the right of way works, though I don’t know how I know in this case (no driveways, the way the streets are set up, etc.). Pretty sure FSD did not understand it, though I should try again.

 

[sleepydoc]

No, definitely not. Largely as expected so far. However, I’ll continue to make my observations

Your posts with observations have the tone that FSD completely fails to meet your expectations

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Your posts with observations have the tone that FSD completely fails to meet your expectations

I think you have to differentiate a description of a system which has many limitations from the idea that somehow this means disappointment or that it was not expected. I’m really just trying to describe my experiences and point out the things people are likely to notice if they get FSDb. In general it seems like my experiences are well within the norm.

If you really care to review my posts from the very first release (seems like a waste of time), I think you’ll find that I repeatedly say that it’s about as I expected.

 

[nvx1977]

Oh, I did (I think? What was the first round of the release to safety scores?)! Not much improvement so far as far as I can tell.

we were the first safety-score cohort that got FSDb 10.2 on Oct 11, 2011. We spent 3 weeks massaging our SS starting Sept 25, and we were morally against rebooting the MCU to clear penalties

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

we were the first safety-score cohort that got FSDb 10.2 on Oct 11, 2011. We spent 3 weeks massaging our SS starting Sept 25, and we were morally against rebooting the MCU to clear penalties

I should say that one thing with FSDb (b) that I DO like is the driver monitoring. It’s very strict and actually seems to be getting a bit better at detecting misbehavior with each release (you really can’t turn your head away for long to daydream!). Probably can be better, and I haven’t experimented with its abilities at night too much, but I have no doubt it is improving the safety of this limited rollout (note: this is not a statement that it is completely safe).
There are ways to defeat it of course but it is not bad. In general people using the beta are being forced to pay attention, as they should be (these efforts aren’t covered enough in the media - they should report it out and figure out how good the monitoring is, and what the defeats are - seems like they are usually using past reporting on monitoring, implying it has not changed; a bit lazy).

I am hoping the strikes system is helping weed out those MCU-resetters! I’m morally opposed to Tesla resetting strike count except in cases of documented hardware failure.

 

[EVNow]

.... but smoothness or jerking wheel? Does it really matter if the wheel shakes In the big picture? Not really.

It does. Infact we had a whole thread on this.

Let me give an example. I'm waiting for a ULT. The oncoming vehicle is just a second away or even right next to me. If the steering wheel suddenly jerks - I'm going to disconnect. So should you. Because we don't know whether it's just jerking or will actually take off causing an accident. The oncoming car driver can also freakout because of this.

Happened to me couple of times yesterday. One of the reasons my disengagements have gone up this release compared to 10.11.2.

 

[Twiglett]

Over the last few weeks I've been able to conduct an interesting experiment.
My kiddo finally decided it was time to learn to drive - aged 20 who has only driven video games before. So I've been able to compare learner driver skill to FSDb.
At week one, FSDb was definitely better, hey everyone has to learn right?
By week two FSDb was still slightly better but not by much. Better in this case is that a learner would get round more corners than FSDb could.
By week three there was no contest, my 20yr old learner driver was easily outperforming FSDb in most cases.
My learner was still braking too late as speeds got higher, but was already looking further down the road than FSD and my learner never stopped for 15 seconds at a 4way stop.
The comparison doesn't apply to AP or NoA, my learner has a little way to go with faster roads, but for "city streets" a learner with three weeks experience was already outperforming FSDb.
Now we are two months in, my learner will easily pass the drivers test - admittedly the Texas drivers "test" just means don't run off the road.
I'm pretty sure FSDb couldn't pass even that smile test.

In the meantime, still reporting issues and looking forward to 10.13, I want my smooth turns back again

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

my learner never stopped for 15 seconds at a 4way stop.

No such thing as too careful with 10.12, apparently. Great peril! If it’s an unmarked stop though, just plow right ahead (I need to try that intersection again just to see if it was a fluke; I’ll take a video)!

 

[sleepydoc]

Over the last few weeks I've been able to conduct an interesting experiment.
My kiddo finally decided it was time to learn to drive - aged 20 who has only driven video games before. So I've been able to compare learner driver skill to FSDb.
At week one, FSDb was definitely better, hey everyone has to learn right?
By week two FSDb was still slightly better but not by much. Better in this case is that a learner would get round more corners than FSDb could.
By week three there was no contest, my 20yr old learner driver was easily outperforming FSDb in most cases.
My learner was still braking too late as speeds got higher, but was already looking further down the road than FSD and my learner never stopped for 15 seconds at a 4way stop.
The comparison doesn't apply to AP or NoA, my learner has a little way to go with faster roads, but for "city streets" a learner with three weeks experience was already outperforming FSDb.
Now we are two months in, my learner will easily pass the drivers test - admittedly the Texas drivers "test" just means don't run off the road.
I'm pretty sure FSDb couldn't pass even that smile test.

In the meantime, still reporting issues and looking forward to 10.13, I want my smooth turns back again

That’s an interesting description. Many people have made the comparison of FSDb to a new driver and you’ve basically confirmed that.

The thing to remember is humans learn. Computers don’t. The ‘learning’ is done by the programming team adjusting algorithms. Computers also don’t exercise judgement or extrapolate to new situations.

Now, with the above knowledge, consider FSDb approaching a 4 way stop sign but something in the inputs doesn’t quite match so it’s not what the computer recognizes as a 4 way stop. A human will handle that situation with no problem. But a human brain can extrapolate, exercise judgement, and recognize patterns.

 

[Twiglett]

That’s an interesting description. Many people have made the comparison of FSDb to a new driver and you’ve basically confirmed that.

The thing to remember is humans learn. Computers don’t. The ‘learning’ is done by the programming team adjusting algorithms. Computers also don’t exercise judgement or extrapolate to new situations.

Now, with the above knowledge, consider FSDb approaching a 4 way stop sign but something in the inputs doesn’t quite match so it’s not what the computer recognizes as a 4 way stop. A human will handle that situation with no problem. But a human brain can extrapolate, exercise judgement, and recognize patterns.

Fully agree, wasn't trying to suggest that FSDb learns in the car.
I was interested in the comparison because, as you say, others had made similar comments, so I saw that I had the opportunity to see it "in the flesh" as it were.
At this stage it didn't surprise me in the slightest, but also made me think of all the extra stuff FSD will need to do, like avoid potholes or road debris for instance. Its got a very long way to go - but I'm happy to be part of the journey.