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FSD Beta 10.13

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It's been several years since I've had a "slammer" phantom breaking. For that one I was heading under an overpass that cast a dark shadow on the freeway and it suddenly braked hard enough to push me into my seat. Probably would have been rear-ended if there was a tailgater.

However, on my regular work commute there are three places that regularly cause PBs. One is passing under a complicated interchange structure, another is one particular overhead directional sign approached uphill, the third is a sweeping curve facing a sound abatement wall. They are so regular I now just float my foot over the accelerator, ready to override. In all those cases it suddenly changes the speed set point. The worst case is the sound wall where it will drop from 65 down to 35. The effect is not of mechanical braking but of total lift off from the pedal with a huge regen braking.

These are all on limited-access freeways. The behavior hasn't improved since changing to FSD-beta, as it still runs the same old NoAP software on those roads. On high speed multi lane roads that are not limited access, I haven't noticed any PBs. That may not reveal anything since I used to drive on those with TACC and Autosteer without PBs.

I'm holding out hope that the next beta release may finally correct my regular PBs without creating some new problem that's a net fail.
 
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I did a cross country trip last year. The only PB events occurred with no lead car. With the newer loads (beta FSD), I no longer seem to get PB events even without a lead car.
It is sometimes difficult for me to make sense of PB posts here. People tend to mix up city streets and highway navigation. And posts regarding FSD beta are mixed in with non-beta FSD.

My experience with FSD beta on city streets is that PB events are not common. The few that are reproducible probably have something to do with speed limit mapping errors.

On highways, the only time that PB occurs for me is when I'm exceeding the posted speed limit and the speed limit signage changes.
 
Nice to see a posted example. So biggest excursion was 7mph in about 1-2 seconds, which would be unpleasant and annoying, but not hazardous usually (since it would be quickly corrected by accelerator). Unless a brodozer behind you thinks you're brake checking him, in which case there could be problems.

AP stack there of course (but with Teslavision).

This seems fairly typical for PB severity. I rarely see it this bad, but I think I've probably had this happen before (though I can't remember that sort of example for FSD Beta).
 
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I experience PB at the location of the Pin in the map attached. It occurs every pass and if there is no one behind me I have let it go to a full stop. I have checked the display and see nothing rendered that would indicate a reason. Will get video in next few days.
PB.jpg
 
I experience PB at the location of the Pin in the map attached. It occurs every pass and if there is no one behind me I have let it go to a full stop. I have checked the display and see nothing rendered that would indicate a reason. Will get video in next few days. View attachment 835523
On TomTom, Bestgate is mapped at 35 mph for all segments near that point, but as I suspect, that might not mean anything to Tesla. Open Street Maps has no speed limit tags for Bestgate, for what that's worth.

I wonder if those two tall decorative street lights in the median are being recognized as traffic signals?
 
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That's the spot where 694 splits to 94 going south towards Mpls, right? What's the issue you're having currently? I drive there not infrequently and haven't noticed anything. I'm on 2022.12.3.20 and usually have it on FSDb/NoA
No issue right now. Prior to the beta (NoA) it would do a phantom break here. Now with the beta that is gone but I notice that it very briefly switches from the old auto pilot stack to the new beta view. I think that these transitions from old to new stack are where many of phantom brake events are happening. Overall, I am super happy with FSDb.
 
Nice to see a posted example. So biggest excursion was 7mph in about 1-2 seconds, which would be unpleasant and annoying, but not hazardous usually (since it would be quickly corrected by accelerator). Unless a brodozer behind you thinks you're brake checking him, in which case there could be problems.

AP stack there of course (but with Teslavision).

This seems fairly typical for PB severity. I rarely see it this bad, but I think I've probably had this happen before (though I can't remember that sort of example for FSD Beta).
The braking isn't strong enough to engage brake lights. Taking your foot off the accelerator with full regen is definitely enough to engage the brake lights. Still weird to see the display showing cars in the distance even when there isn't a car there.
 
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On TomTom, Bestgate is mapped at 35 mph for all segments near that point, but as I suspect, that might not mean anything to Tesla. Open Street Maps has no speed limit tags for Bestgate, for what that's worth.

I wonder if those two tall decorative street lights in the median are being recognized as traffic signals?
Tesla holds to 35 fine except for that piece. No light rendered. There are HV transmission towers just before the PB, however there is no PB going in thw other direction.
 
Tesla holds to 35 fine except for that piece. No light rendered. There are HV transmission towers just before the PB, however there is no PB going in thw other direction.
Your visualization may not display the streetlights as traffic signals but the car may be confused as to what they are. Send the FSD beta email a note about this. It's unclear to me how traffic signals are recognized by the NN. Obviously, their embedded colored lights matter, but there must be some other criteria in play, else all kinds of red, yellow and green lights would be misidentified. Standard red/amber/green lights aren't a problem because of sequencing,, but lane signals and flashing signals are more problematic.

Just out of curiosity, does anything different happen at that location at night?
 
The braking isn't strong enough to engage brake lights.
Yep. The best kind of brake checking is the one which doesn't involve brake lights. Keeps people on their toes!

Anyway this is the typical phantom braking stuff. Usually very low rates of deceleration, and super annoying and disturbing, but not a true hazard (since the driver will just override promptly). Always feels worse than it is, I think because it is uncommanded.
 
amazing it thinks a mirage is a car, but same tech didnt think twice about running into the back of a guy on a REAL (not a mirage) motorcycle
Interesting that the driver appears to increase the max speed limit went from 70mph to 79mph making the slow down appear more significant. The first slow down was 2-3mph the second around 7mph so not exactly "rapidly" as they stated it was "10-15 mph". But still concerning.
 
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amazing it thinks a mirage is a car, but same tech didnt think twice about running into the back of a guy on a REAL (not a mirage) motorcycle
I would wait to for the details to emerge about the motorcycle accident.

You also have to keep in mind that the throttle overrides AP so if you have the throttle engaged you'll run right into something it DOES see.,
 
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Though this would be preceded by furious beeping, if an object was actually detected. Hopefully (in my experience it always is).
Based on my experience with standard FSD autopilot, I do conclude that the car is not registering some unknown foreign objects. It seems that if it doesn't have a label to apply to tag what it's looking at, it may treat it as if there's nothing there. This can happen even with striped construction barriers directly in the lane.

I guess that, knowing people are very upset about false positives producing PB or slowdowns, and knowing that the driver is still the overseer, this is how they've chosen to deal with unclassified objects. However, I certainly hope that as the system progresses, they don't continue to ignore unclassified debris or unlabeled foreign objects.

Having said that, I've never seen it fail to recognize a motorcycle, which humans fail to do very often.
 
Surprising the car seems to be doing well these last few weeks on the city streets around me which had the lines scraped off in preparation of a fresh slurry and repaint.

I figured the car would be all over the places but it still knew where the lines were.

Interesting.