FSD Beta 11.4.2 Ignores White Shoulder Boundary!

[Padelford]

Testing FSD beta 11.4.2 today on a short torture course that caused problems for earlier versions. This drive was done in Chill mode. At 5:49, it barely made the transition into a left turn lane to enter an onramp to I-5, which earlier versions could not do. It had to make a hard braking maneuver to enter the lane. 11.4.2 has missed making this left turn before, then tried to make an illegal left turn in front of the other left turning traffic at the intersection.

At 7:57, the vehicle ignores the right white shoulder boundary and pulls over into the shoulder to make the next right turn. The flat shoulder ends at the intersection with a raised sidewalk, so I intervened and took control away from FSD beta. I saw similar behavior a day or so ago, so this is not a fluke.

 

[Supcom]

Testing FSD beta 11.4.2 today on a short torture course that caused problems for earlier versions. This drive was done in Chill mode. At 5:49, it barely made the transition into a left turn lane to enter an onramp to I-5, which earlier versions could not do. It had to make a hard braking maneuver to enter the lane. 11.4.2 has missed making this left turn before, then tried to make an illegal left turn in front of the other left turning traffic at the intersection.

At 7:57, the vehicle ignores the right white shoulder boundary and pulls over into the shoulder to make the next right turn. The flat shoulder ends at the intersection with a raised sidewalk, so I intervened and took control away from FSD beta. I saw similar behavior a day or so ago, so this is not a fluke.

I've had FSDb mistake the shoulder for a regular lane plenty of times on multiple versions.

 

[Padelford]

I've had FSDb mistake the shoulder for a regular lane plenty of times on multiple versions.

I’ve never observed this before on any version.

 

[jabloomf1230]

I’ve never observed this before on any version.

I previously posted here about having a similar experience with 11.4.2 using the shoulder to make a right turn. I'm beginning to wonder if this behavior is intentional. Like yourself, I've never had this happen on any prior FSDb version.

Getting back to whether this behavior is intentional or not, it is legal to use the shoulder to proceed forward and go around a car on the right that is attempting a left turn . I suppose that if the shoulder is wide enough, it's probably okay to use the shoulder to make a right turn if the car in front is blocking the lane. All of this behavior pertains to roads with shoulders that are as wide as a standard travel lane.

 

[jabloomf1230]

Here's the intersection that I mentioned above:

 

[SpartanToJo]

That shoulder sure looks like a lane to me. Especially with the tire marks from multitudes of vehicles using as such. I think that I would make the turn using the ‘shoulder’ in my Jeep.

 

[CharleyBC]

Today on 11.4.2, it was doing this maneuver from a local road onto an I-5 onramp:

(From West Valley View at the top right, then downward and toward the left of this clip.)

It cut the curve way too tight, going well over the white shoulder line. I'd estimate it may have been about half the width of the car over the line.

 

[Dewg]

Today on 11.4.2, it was doing this maneuver from a local road onto an I-5 onramp:
View attachment 942822
(From West Valley View at the top right, then downward and toward the left of this clip.)

It cut the curve way too tight, going well over the white shoulder line. I'd estimate it may have been about half the width of the car over the line.

Try the same route again, this time scrolling down the speed before the turn. If it was previously set to 50MPH, for example, try wheeling down to 25 or 30MPH and see if it handles the turn without going over the line. If so, then it's just a matter of tuning the NN to recognize tight turns further in advance and lowering the speed ahead of the turn.

 

[fasteddie7]

Same shoulder behavior for me as well. There’s a couple spots where it will cross a white line into the dirt to make a right even from a stop.

 

[CharleyBC]

Try the same route again, this time scrolling down the speed before the turn. If it was previously set to 50MPH, for example, try wheeling down to 25 or 30MPH and see if it handles the turn without going over the line. If so, then it's just a matter of tuning the NN to recognize tight turns further in advance and lowering the speed ahead of the turn.

I'll pay attention next time, though I think it's already about 30 there. Speed didn't feel like a factor, but again, I'll check it out as you suggest next time!

 

[Dewg]

I'll pay attention next time, though I think it's already about 30 there. Speed didn't feel like a factor, but again, I'll check it out as you suggest next time!

Let us know the results. I'm curious if reducing the speed handles the turn better. My gut tells me it probably won't, which could point to a pathing issue with the NN that would need more training/samples. If it still fails the turn even at a lower speed - you indicated it might have been at 30MPH when it failed, so try lowering to 20MPH - then you have a repeatable scenario. You can run through it a few times and disengage mid turn, and voice report your findings. The more training data, the better.

 

[bimmer88]

Just had something similar happen, but car wasn't trying to make a turn. I was going down a straight 1 lane road. Car kept acting like it wanted to pull over to the side of the road. It would pull a little bit past the white shoulder boundary then weave back into the lane. It then goes a little further down the road and does the same thing. Does it like 3 times before I disengaged... car is going about 50-55mph while this is happening. It shows on the visualization that the car is trying to drive past the white shoulder boundary so the car sees it. Very strange behavior... Didn't do this on the same road with 11.3.6.

 

[CharleyBC]

Just had something similar happen, but car wasn't trying to make a turn. I was going down a straight 1 lane road. Car kept acting like it wanted to pull over to the side of the road. It would pull a little bit past the white shoulder boundary then weave back into the lane. It then goes a little further down the road and does the same thing. Does it like 3 times before I disengaged... car is going about 50-55mph while this is happening. Very strange behavior... Didn't do this on the same road with 11.3.6.

Weird. Sort of like that, today I was in a left turn lane, and as we rolled toward the actual turn, FSD dodged right into the adjacent travel lane (about halfway) and quickly back again, as though it was dodging an obstacle, but there was nothing there.

 

[powertoold]

Here's the shoulder curb 11.4.2 was trying to drive up:

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This is an edge case. For most right turns, you want to bias into the shoulder, but not in this case

If the driver let 11.4.2 drive all the way to the curb, would FSDb have corrected? We don't know.

 

[jabloomf1230]

That shoulder sure looks like a lane to me. Especially with the tire marks from multitudes of vehicles using as such. I think that I would make the turn using the ‘shoulder’ in my Jeep.

I think that because the right hand lane also can proceed straight, many drivers use the shoulder to turn right when the light is read.

 

[JB47394]

I'm curious if reducing the speed handles the turn better.

I've noticed that FSDb will bias to the inside of a curve on the highway as a normal thing - even when crawling in traffic. I find it uncomfortable given that everyone else will stick to the center of the lane when moving at low speed. The Tesla engineers seem to have set the bias according to the curvature of the road, not according to the lateral forces expected.

 

[Jack Oak]

This version is a step backwards. More bugs than 11.3.6. It drives than the middle of a road (2 way raid with no median markings), will not use suicide lane to make a left turn (this worked during 11.3.6), while in a stopped in a left turn lane behind a few cars, it will
Decide suddenly to switch over to the adjacent lane. Will drive to a stop while making a right turn. This is the worse update. No real benefits seen.

 

[johnm]

it is legal to use the shoulder to proceed forward and go around a car on the right that is attempting a left turn

I'm curious. Can you suggest a state where this is legal?

 

[jabloomf1230]

I'm curious. Can you suggest a state where this is legal?

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Most states differentiate between paved and unpaved shoulders. Driving on unpaved shoulders is prohibited in most jurisdictions.

 

[DomDeWild]

In New York State, it is illegal to drive on the shoulder, paved or unpaved. They are starting to crack down on cars using the shoulder to make a right turn. I have seen a few intersections where they have added diagonally striped lines in the shoulder.