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FSD beta for all?
- Thread starter vapor trail
- Start date
rxlawdude
Active Member
All of the FSD beta videos clearly show that once on a freeway, it reverts to NoA.
The labeling and prioritization of items perceived, the ability to use the inputs from all cameras and analyze the inputs in real time from all cameras is new. This rewite uses entirely different logic to perform its function. Are you suggesting that there is transition between two entirely different systems somehow when driving out of a city onto a freeway, or that perhaps only the visualizations presented to the driver changes?
"But for now, development of Full Self Driving has reached a “local maximum”, forcing Tesla to do a “fundamental rewrite” of the software stack and relabel objects manually via 3D video.
“We had to do a fundamental rewrite of the entire Autopilot software stack… We’re now labeling 3D video, which is hugely different from when we were previously labeling single 2D images,” Musk said.
“We’re now labeling entire video segments, taking all cameras simultaneously and labeling that. The sophistication of the neural net of the car and the overall logic of the car is improved dramatically.”"
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Tam
Well-Known Member
What Musk said doesn't necessarily mean it happens for youtubers.
Here's the city module that we all can see the left and right red lines at an entry ramp prior to merging into freeway traffic:
But as soon as it merges into a freeway, the old familiar NoA without red lines is back:
It's unknown how good the rewrite for freeway is but certainly, there are no red lines, there are no boxes to represent vehicles and other objects...
It's unknown whether it can still slam into a fire truck, a police car, or a street sweeper vehicle... that is protruding halfway into its own lane or it can now put a rectangular box on those objects and avoid hitting those vehicles.
bktiger86
Member
Sounds like FSD beta will not be for all anymore. Elon tweeted that it will be sending out to 2000 participants. So I am assuming he is going back on his words as usual.
And apparently they are monitoring via driving facing camera. What about owners of older S/X
He said they would roll out to a smaller group first before opening it up to a lot more users.
Though, with Musk, timeframes are always pretty squishy...
rxlawdude
Active Member
This may also be due to the pending investigation by NTSB and NHTSA into Tesla's implementation of FSD. I figured when I read that article a couple of days ago that it would be the end of the "button."
And here we are.
Tam
Well-Known Member
NTSB letter to NHTSA regarding "Framework for Automated Driving System Safety" is not something new.
NTSB has repeatedly asked NHTSA for stricter standards, rules, and mandatory reporting ever since the first autopilot fatality in the Floria accident such as to require an interior camera monitoring driver's compliance...
If NTSB has its way, it's not the end of FSD but it will make FSD's performance more transparent because currently, only a limited privileged few can somehow have passed the application process for the Early Access Program (such as being a member of a club).
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I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion. The display visualization is shifting to what people with FSD/NOA see on highways today. My assumption would be that is because they feel that is the "final visualization" and they are getting what they need in terms of feedbck from the "real EAP testers" (those who get the early releases and are sending feedback back to Tesla. In the case of non-highway areas, they are using a different visualization to help the testers determine what is happening and provide appropriate feedback. Just because the display on highways is the same does not mean that the software running in the background is the same as what those who are not running FSD Beta are running. Without looking at the software code, there is no way to know, but what we do know based on some youtube videos is not enough evidence to support the conclusion you are making (i.e., that on highways the FSD Beta testers are running the same software as everyone else).
rxlawdude
Active Member
I guess the explicit statement from multiple beta testers that it reverts to GA NoA on highways isn't enough evidence for you.
Just because the visualizations revert to the currently available NoA view does not mean the underlying logic and software is not different. Likewise, if Tesla added the new beta visualizations (which I actually like) on highways but did not change the underlying software, it would not be considered rewritten.
The current NoA logic for better or worse is more mature and it makes sense to use it where it can if it is effective.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
His point is testers have no way to know if it's the same NOA or if they made changes behind the scenes. The UI switching means nothing.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
First of all Elon didn't say FSD Beta would be for all. He said he would make a button but he did not explicitly say everyone will get the button (in fact he explicitly said they won't: it would vary on region). Same deal when people send an email to request FSD Beta: not everyone would be approved; they look at your driving environment to determine if they want you in the program.
Second of all as already pointed out in the other thread the 2000 is referring to 8.2, which Elon previously said exactly the same would happen. He also suggested 8.3 would have around 10k (10X size).
New button to enable FSD Beta download?
Seriously, people need to read his actual tweets, not all the various (usually wrong) paraphrasing that the media posts.
From March 5:
"If you want the Tesla Full Self-Driving Beta downloaded to your car, let us know. Doubling beta program size now with 8.2 & probably 10X size with 8.3. Still be careful, but it’s getting mature."
March 6 replying to same tweet:
"Due to high levels of demand for FSD Beta, adding “Download Beta” button to Service section of car display in ~10 days"
"Availability varies by region due to regulatory approval delays and/or Tesla internal development & testing. Note: word “Beta” is used to reduce complacency in usage & set expectations appropriately. All software is first tested internally by Tesla simulation & QA drive teams."
March 12:
"FSD Beta has now been expanded to ~2000 owners & we’ve also revoked beta where drivers did not pay sufficient attention to the road. No accidents to date. Next significant release will be in April. Going with pure vision — not even using radar. This is the way to real-world AI."
bktiger86
Member
LOL!!! God damn! Maybe take a breather alright? I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread by now already knows that everything Elon tweets are like all over the place. Hope you had fun gathering all that data.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
It took no time at all. Just had to Google for a link to his tweets, given other people already pointed it out in the other thread. It's also right there on his twitter account. Elon doesn't tweet so much that a tweet from a week ago gets completely buried.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk
It's not like other things where you have to dig into multiple page reports or even earnings calls where you have to dig through a transcript (if there is one available). Tweets have a limit of only 280 characters, it's so easy to look at the source that there is no reason to look at third party reports which usually gets things wrong.
Nope because what they are observing is what the display does. They have no idea what is happening at the software level on the back end (actually that is not true, because there are members of the autopilot team who are also driving the beta software and they know...but those people aren't posting videos on Youtube or talking about it publicly). It appears that many of the FSD beta testers are not testers in the same way that the original early access program people were. Those folks were given insights into what the code changes were and actively providing feedback on what happened. They were also operating under an NDA and couldn't talk about it, let alone post youtube videos about the code. These days it appears the the FSDbeta people are really just people driving the car with the code and Tesla is pulling data from their cars...but they don't have any real insights or engagement with the autopilot software team.
From your screen name (rxlawdude), I'm guessing you are an attorney. I'm not one, but I think what you are doing is drawing a conclusion from circumstantial evidence. It is certainly not a conclusion supported by facts. I don't know what the software is doing behind the scenes either, but I do disagree with the conclusion you are drawing from the evidence presented. Now if a guy like @verygreen tells us that the AP software jumps to a completely different section of code when the car goes on the highway and that code is identical to the existing NOA code, I'll retract my statement. In the meantime, given everything I do know about control system coding and automation coding, I would be shocked if the Beta software is doing what you describe...it would mean they effectively have two variants of the software (NOA and FSD Beta) kludged together into one giant package and are jumping between the two based on where the car thinks it is. From a software development perspective, that is a really stupid way to code because it creates massive potential for conflicts between the old code and new code and doubles the size of the file(s). But again, I don't know what is happening "under the hood" in FSD beta anymore than you do...
it does not really double anything.
This is not to say I have access to the latest Beta, of course, but the car code was long separated into a bunch of modules like "stay in lane manager" and "lane change manager" (that used to be "change to left" and "change to right" managers), "parking behavior", "active safety", ...
The "beta" and various dev builds add "city streets" module, but all the NNs are still in the "Vision" module and their outputs are reused by other modules as needed.
So it's totally feasible how on a highway a city street module deactivates and the old stay in lane/lane change logic takes over. But I have no hard evidence if that's how it works in the latest betas.
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