Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

FSD Beta & Hands On The Wheel

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
In my admittedly limited experience so far with FSD Beta, I've made one observation that I hope Tesla addresses sooner rather than later. The "hands on the wheel" (HotW) test of driver attentiveness has got to go.

Where I live in south-central Pennsylvania, roads are very curvy and hilly. When first using FSD Beta, I couldn't figure out why it was disengaging every few minutes for seemingly no reason. I'm pretty sure it's because my hands were on the wheel, and when the car moves to the curves in the road, it's getting too much resistance from me and assumes I'm taking control. While HotW makes sense for highway driving, which is fairly straight and predictable, it's a nuisance for city driving. And for turns, obviously, you pretty much HAVE to let go.

I know Tesla is now using the internal camera to monitor eyes for attentiveness, and in my opinion this can't roll out soon enough. HotW was imperfect from the start but was still good enough for the highway. Not so much for the city.

Anyways - that's my two cents. Despite that rant, this is really fun and I'm super excited to continue testing and watch the system progress :)
 
In my admittedly limited experience so far with FSD Beta, I've made one observation that I hope Tesla addresses sooner rather than later. The "hands on the wheel" (HotW) test of driver attentiveness has got to go.

Where I live in south-central Pennsylvania, roads are very curvy and hilly. When first using FSD Beta, I couldn't figure out why it was disengaging every few minutes for seemingly no reason. I'm pretty sure it's because my hands were on the wheel, and when the car moves to the curves in the road, it's getting too much resistance from me and assumes I'm taking control. While HotW makes sense for highway driving, which is fairly straight and predictable, it's a nuisance for city driving. And for turns, obviously, you pretty much HAVE to let go.

I know Tesla is now using the internal camera to monitor eyes for attentiveness, and in my opinion this can't roll out soon enough. HotW was imperfect from the start but was still good enough for the highway. Not so much for the city.

Anyways - that's my two cents. Despite that rant, this is really fun and I'm super excited to continue testing and watch the system progress :)
I get your complaint, but I've also found that you can have it fairly loose. You definitely want your hands over the wheel though to break out if it is doing something stupid.

On NoA or AP, I can see the camera monitoring being sufficient and being able to go hands-free, definitely not with FSD beta yet. It has too much freedom and is too unpredictable currently.
 
I like the idea that a steering wheel intervention isn't an automatic disengagement. You can take control at any moment, steer the tricky situation, then relax grip/torque, and the car takes back over. This is similar to the accelerator, where an intervention doesn't disengage. I think the entire FSD experience would improve a LOT for the driver, and there is no sacrifice in data submitted to Tesla for labeling/learning.
 
  • Helpful
Reactions: n.one.one
you should email tesla with that feedback if you haven't already.
I plan to do just that :)
I get your complaint, but I've also found that you can have it fairly loose. You definitely want your hands over the wheel though to break out if it is doing something stupid.

On NoA or AP, I can see the camera monitoring being sufficient and being able to go hands-free, definitely not with FSD beta yet. It has too much freedom and is too unpredictable currently.
Hmm, my experience has been different. With NoAP/AP, I usually rest my right elbow in the center and let my hand sort of "hang" off the wheel. This typically gives enough torque to satisfy AP without causing unintended disengagement. Doing this with FSD Beta on country roads, though, has been a completely different experience for me.

Agreed 100% that you should always be ready to grab the wheel at any moment regardless (and they should definitely NOT advertise this as hands-free driving), but I still think the system would be better served with an improved eye-monitoring system instead.
I like the idea that a steering wheel intervention isn't an automatic disengagement. You can take control at any moment, steer the tricky situation, then relax grip/torque, and the car takes back over. This is similar to the accelerator, where an intervention doesn't disengage. I think the entire FSD experience would improve a LOT for the driver, and there is no sacrifice in data submitted to Tesla for labeling/learning.
That's in interesting idea. I'm guessing it would be hard to implement in practice though, since the cars can only detect torque and not physical touching.
 
When first using FSD Beta, I couldn't figure out why it was disengaging every few minutes for seemingly no reason.
Your point is valid. In my opinion your steering concerns will be resolved by adjusting your personal FSD-Beta driving skill set to account for the HotW requirements. The HotW requirement is not a 100% of the time requirement. As such, you will find over time you will develop an unconscious skill related to imparting steering wheel torque just often enough to prevent disengagement. It's worth noting this newly learned skill as well as any other newly learned skills having to do with FSD-Beta will be compromises dictated by the paramount requirement of safe driving. This need to adapt our driving skills can be difficult especially when not successfully adapting causes the driver to lose confidence in either their ability to use FSD-Beta or to lose confidence in FSD-Beta itself. The conundrum is that driving with FSD-Beta is more difficult than driving without it but at the same time driving with FSD-Beta and disengaging for whatever reason hopefully should be viewed as a teaching event rather than a driver skills problem. Personally I don't have FSD-Beta yet and I'm fine with waiting a while longer for it to mature which I think will happen very quickly thanks to people like you who achieved high Safety Scores and received the early 10.2 rollout.
 
Your point is valid. In my opinion your steering concerns will be resolved by adjusting your personal FSD-Beta driving skill set to account for the HotW requirements. The HotW requirement is not a 100% of the time requirement. As such, you will find over time you will develop an unconscious skill related to imparting steering wheel torque just often enough to prevent disengagement. It's worth noting this newly learned skill as well as any other newly learned skills having to do with FSD-Beta will be compromises dictated by the paramount requirement of safe driving. This need to adapt our driving skills can be difficult especially when not successfully adapting causes the driver to lose confidence in either their ability to use FSD-Beta or to lose confidence in FSD-Beta itself. The conundrum is that driving with FSD-Beta is more difficult than driving without it but at the same time driving with FSD-Beta and disengaging for whatever reason hopefully should be viewed as a teaching event rather than a driver skills problem. Personally I don't have FSD-Beta yet and I'm fine with waiting a while longer for it to mature which I think will happen very quickly thanks to people like you who achieved high Safety Scores and received the early 10.2 rollout.
I think Ticobird is right about getting used to FSD Beta. I have been using FSD Beta for a few weeks now. At first, every time the car would execute a turn on a winding road, I would accidently be holding the wheel too tight and it would disengage. After a few days, I found that as I began to get more experience (and confidence I guess) driving with FSD Beta, I realized I was following the turn of the steering wheel just as if I was making the turn myself. So, I found myself hovering over the wheel as it turned and was ready to grab it at any point if needed. And it is true that driving can be more difficult with FSD Beta driving, but that is what we beta testers are supposed to do.
 
Frankly one MUST have their hands on the wheel at all times, ready to take over in an instant when FSD decides for whatever reason to DIS-ENGAGE steering control and hand it back to the driver. I have two locations where after either making a turn or simply turning IN A curve at speed 25-30 miles per hour, FSD steering control will disengage and if my hands weren't on the wheel at the time the car would just drive into the side of the curbed curve or off the road at speed. IMO this is a totally unacceptable result but if I only had one hand loosely on the wheel and wasn't ready for this type of crazy return of control to the driver with no advance warning, could prove catestrophic.

I should add, I can reproduce this behavior in the same curve each time, this is three times now. It's so predictable that my frequent passenger now reminds me (as If i would forget about ti) as we come up to this curve and I tell her I'm just trying to test if it's learning anything, if it's interpreting the data differently because of TOD or other vehicles, but sure enough it disengages and I have to instantly take control to keep it curving on the road. Sad.
 
  • Like
  • Disagree
Reactions: lUtriaNt and EVNow
While HotW makes sense for highway driving, which is fairly straight and predictable, it's a nuisance for city driving. And for turns, obviously, you pretty much HAVE to let go.
I hold the steering wheel very loosely during turns. There is no way to take over and correct problems, otherwise.

But, that loose holding of the wheel anyway doesn't count towards HotW. Its just a nuisance nag now - since we have to monitor FSD so carefully, anyway.
 
I hold the steering wheel very loosely during turns. There is no way to take over and correct problems, otherwise.

But, that loose holding of the wheel anyway doesn't count towards HotW. Its just a nuisance nag now - since we have to monitor FSD so carefully, anyway.
Yea NO WAY I want my hands off that crazy a$$ steering wheel. o_Oo_O😂
 
I will say, after having used it quite a bit more since my original post, Ticobird was right - I am definitely more comfortable with HotW now. It's still an imperfect system, but it's fine now that I've learned to adapt.

I still wish we could be monitored with our eyes instead, but I suppose Tesla doesn't have enough confidence with that just yet. Regardless of their methods, though, when I see anything even remotely "interesting" up ahead, my hands will be on the wheel with my foot hovering over the brakes anyways!
 
I can reproduce this behavior in the same curve each time, this is three times now. It's so predictable that my frequent passenger now reminds me (as If i would forget about ti) as we come up to this curve and I tell her I'm just trying to test if it's learning anything, if it's interpreting the data differently because of TOD or other vehicles, but sure enough it disengages and I have to instantly take control to keep it curving on the road. Sad.
I'm at a disadvantage because I don't yet have FSD. The videos of FSD driving I've viewed show drivers pressing a button to specifically send a flag back to Tesla about a problem with FSD's handling of a driving situation. Have you done this tivoboy? I'm pretty sure it's unrealistic to expect repeated driving paths through a previously determined problem area to behave differently unless the Tesla FSD development team knows about it and gets the chance to examine what is confusing the sensors causing the application of undesirable steering input. Also it's always good to remember that FSD training is a combination between the inputs of the driver, sensors and the Tesla FSD training computer nicknamed Dojo. The input we as drivers impart to the vehicle as FSD is active has to make its way back to the Dojo training computer in order for it to be incorporated into the training routine. Our vehicles are not capable of independently training FSD for specific local situations. That's just not how it works. I envision a very close collaboration between the FSD development team and the group curating sensor data that will be included in upcoming FSD version iterations. We as drivers are not training our singular vehicles for specifically and repeatedly difficult driving situations. In order for your particular steering anomaly location to be incorporated into the FSD training your sensor data must be sent back to Tesla.
 
Interesting complaint. I find the opposite annoying as sin. Having flat straight roads in Florida forces you to keep putting pressure on the steering wheel every 10 seconds as if you have Parkinson’s or something. It’s literally just easier to drive manually because I can hold the wheel and the car goes straight. Playing whack a mole is more distracting than anything else, also makes me have to constantly take my eyes off the road to check whether there’s a nag on the dash or not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dgatwood
makes me have to constantly take my eyes off the road to check whether there’s a nag on the dash or not
I have found that I have managed to increase my peripheral vision awareness a lot since driving with Autopilot although I readily admit I am not at all familiar with the FSD visual clues prior to disconnect. I have noticed in FSD YouTube videos the driver simply rotating up or down the right steering wheel button that controls the set-speed is enough to satisfy FSD as needed insofar as paying attention. You might want to try this if you haven't already. It seems like if it works it may be a slightly less involved means of letting FSD know you are paying attention. Since I just mentioned set-speed, I think it is important to check your Autopilot settings and make sure you are activating FSD at the speed limit set-speed rather than using a higher set-speed offset.
 
Frankly one MUST have their hands on the wheel at all times, ready to take over in an instant when FSD decides for whatever reason to DIS-ENGAGE steering control and hand it back to the driver. I have two locations where after either making a turn or simply turning IN A curve at speed 25-30 miles per hour, FSD steering control will disengage and if my hands weren't on the wheel at the time the car would just drive into the side of the curbed curve or off the road at speed. IMO this is a totally unacceptable result but if I only had one hand loosely on the wheel and wasn't ready for this type of crazy return of control to the driver with no advance warning, could prove catestrophic.

I should add, I can reproduce this behavior in the same curve each time, this is three times now. It's so predictable that my frequent passenger now reminds me (as If i would forget about ti) as we come up to this curve and I tell her I'm just trying to test if it's learning anything, if it's interpreting the data differently because of TOD or other vehicles, but sure enough it disengages and I have to instantly take control to keep it curving on the road. Sad.
FSD does NOT disengage itself on turns. Rather, you are disengaging FSD when you grip the turning wheel tight enough (little force is needed) to cause thecdisengagement. Yes, your hands should loosely be on the wheel during a turn, ready to grab and take over when you need to. As long as FSD is turning safely, you should allow the wheel to turn freely under your loose hands. Resume torque on the wheel only after the turn, so you won't get the inattentive nags.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Jeff Hudson
FSD does NOT disengage itself on turns. Rather, you are disengaging FSD when you grip the turning wheel tight enough (little force is needed) to cause thecdisengagement. Yes, your hands should loosely be on the wheel during a turn, ready to grab and take over when you need to. As long as FSD is turning safely, you should allow the wheel to turn freely under your loose hands. Resume torque on the wheel only after the turn, so you won't get the inattentive nags.
while its possible, I dont think that is what is happening. Having used AP/EAP for the past three years I know how much force it takes to disengage AP/EAP and now FSD purposely. When I'm driving and have my "hands on the wheel" when the car is making lane changes or turning, I let the wheel simply slide through my hands and move my hands preemtively in the direction the wheel is either going to turn (fractions of a second before it does) I know we all can relate to letting the wheel "slide through your hands" just to be near it and ready to take over. when in a turn, it can't simply slide through, since the wheel is actually going to rotate enough that the wheel ribs at ~10 and ~2, are going to rotate enough around to bump up against ones hands, so the hands need to actually MOVE as well. This is all happening.

So, it's possible, but in this case I don't think that is what is happening. Since this example in these two places are totally reproducable, I'll try and do it again and actually have hands OFF the wheel entirely, but near enough to be able to take over since it's probably 1-2 seconds TOPS before it's going into the corner at this location.

In response to another poster about this, yes i'm sending videos and almost immediately corresponding bug report reports for all these issues. For THIS issue, i've actually written it up and sent it along with a google map sat image to the beta test email, so hopefully, Tesla can reproduce it and see what is happening.
 
I'm at a disadvantage because I don't yet have FSD. The videos of FSD driving I've viewed show drivers pressing a button to specifically send a flag back to Tesla about a problem with FSD's handling of a driving situation. Have you done this tivoboy?
yes, I do this each time for almost all unexpected or unpredicted behavours. Click the send videos button (like others, I wish for FSD this button was larger, closer to the drive or somewhere else).. maybe just tap the big car icon or put a bigger button on the left of the Nav screen (or top of the expanded visualization screen for that matter) AND I send a bug report with some narrative about what I saw, expected and what the unexpected or incorrect response was.

For THIS issue, i've actually written it up and sent it along with a google map sat image to the beta test email, so hopefully, Tesla can reproduce it and see what is happening.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jeff Hudson
while its possible, I dont think that is what is happening. Having used AP/EAP for the past three years I know how much force it takes to disengage AP/EAP and now FSD purposely. When I'm driving and have my "hands on the wheel" when the car is making lane changes or turning, I let the wheel simply slide through my hands and move my hands preemtively in the direction the wheel is either going to turn (fractions of a second before it does) I know we all can relate to letting the wheel "slide through your hands" just to be near it and ready to take over. when in a turn, it can't simply slide through, since the wheel is actually going to rotate enough that the wheel ribs at ~10 and ~2, are going to rotate enough around to bump up against ones hands, so the hands need to actually MOVE as well. This is all happening.

So, it's possible, but in this case I don't think that is what is happening. Since this example in these two places are totally reproducable, I'll try and do it again and actually have hands OFF the wheel entirely, but near enough to be able to take over since it's probably 1-2 seconds TOPS before it's going into the corner at this location.

In response to another poster about this, yes i'm sending videos and almost immediately corresponding bug report reports for all these issues. For THIS issue, i've actually written it up and sent it along with a google map sat image to the beta test email, so hopefully, Tesla can reproduce it and see what is happening.
I keep the palms of my hands touching but not gripping the top of the wheel during turns. My fingers are extended so there is no way they are going to make contact with the ribs on the wheel and cause disengagement.

With FSD, Tesla has significantly dialed down the torgue needed to disengage. It is much less that what it had been with AP. I like your idea of proving this to yourself by having your hands off but near the wheel during those troublesome curves. Let us know what happens.
 
FSD does NOT disengage itself on turns. Rather, you are disengaging FSD when you grip the turning wheel tight enough (little force is needed) to cause thecdisengagement. Yes, your hands should loosely be on the wheel during a turn, ready to grab and take over when you need to. As long as FSD is turning safely, you should allow the wheel to turn freely under your loose hands. Resume torque on the wheel only after the turn, so you won't get the inattentive nags.
So, just for you (and me) I got 10.4 update last night at 22:10, but did not install it so I could go back to the two places where I’m getting/seeing this dis-engage issue in a curve or after turning. I went to the one that is the most concerning where it’s IN THE CURVE and the dis-engagement occurs suddenly and it would go into the curb/off the road if one doesn’t take over.

So, what I did was simply hold my hands outside the wheel, not even touching save for just the light touch of skin. No thumbs at 9 and 3, no grip, nothing. And - on my MOTHERS grave, the car entered the curve, struggled, and gave me the “bo booP” and I had to take over.

I know what it takes to dis-engage, or take over AP/FSD, we all sort of know the force required to stop the nag, or actually take over and dis-engage AP. As I could feel the slight slide of the wheel through the almost not touching tips of my fingers, I just cannot imagine that it’s user input that is telling the car “I’m taking over”.

Unless, and this I don’t know and I don’t know if ANYONE really knows, but IF the FSD has multiple LEVELS of sensation for input, the slight tug or weight required to stop the NAG. When driving straight and wanting to take over through steering wheel input, that’s a slightly different level, more pronounced or forceful. Not hard, just MORE than what it takes to stop the NAG. And then this situation, if the car even FEELS that hands on the surface of the wheel, NOT holding, NO resistance just the soft pass of skin (And there is ZERO evidence that the physical wheel even has this capability) and chooses, based on situation to interpret that as the driver wants to take over, well then MAYBE that is it, but I doubt It.

I’ll send a screenshot of the location soon, I’ve already sent this to Tesla as it is so reproducible, but I honestly do not think this is user input that is telling the car to stop autosteer while taking this curve.
 
Last edited:
And, on another note here is one that freaked me out today. I was parked, behind another car at a stop light. what is ODD is, the light was red for a long time. There was clearly a car in front of me, and well, you can see what the Tesla WANTED To do and TRIED to do three times, each time I stopped it (wheel turning right and car trying to accelerate around). The lane to my RIGHT was an ACTIVE lane with cars traveling at 35-40 MPH. Each time, I stopped the car, dis-engaged and then straightened it out and re-engaged. And EACH time it started to want to go AROUND this car in the front of me. IF I had let the go do what it wanted, I would have no back end of my M3 at the moment.
 

Attachments

  • 89071787-CE0D-4893-A1F0-3EFD2E0D06AD.jpeg
    89071787-CE0D-4893-A1F0-3EFD2E0D06AD.jpeg
    400.3 KB · Views: 116