FSD Beta Videos (and questions for FSD Beta drivers)

[powertoold]

Tesla doesn't owe anyone L4. That's ridiculous. They never used the term L4, which has a very specific definition wrt to the roles of the vehicle, the software, and driver.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

It doesn’t even seem like it was close to driving off a cliff. Maybe through some rocks onto an old dirt trail, which makes sense since the car uses maps and a cliff isn’t on a map while fire access roads (the dirt road) would be.

So the idea that it doesn’t recognize boulders in the road does not give you pause?

I mean, as a level 2 system and without all relevant objects trained maybe it isn’t all that big a deal…yet. I am not surprised, given the current state of development.

But I am not sure why you are looking for a Tesla literally driving off a cliff. I guess I have lost the thread.

Putting the driving off a cliff aside, what are your thoughts on this? Two to four weeks?

 

[Knightshade]

Since you're trying so hard to be right, there you go, here's a star for you

Thanks for explaining DOJO better than the architects and engineers behind it. You're definitely right and the people who designed it are wrong.

Dude. I'm repeating the same stuff they said

But yes please show me where the "engineers behind it" said it was used for simulation, not AI training.

A video link and timestamp please.

What they said was the currently use simulations to GENERATE data to then feed to the training system (which is Dojos primary purpose)

This is a pure machine learning machine

 

[Knightshade]

Tesla doesn't owe anyone L4. That's ridiculous. They never used the term L4, which has a very specific definition wrt to the roles of the vehicle, the software, and driver.

They owe at least L4. There's an argument they owe L5.

This is clear in the description of what they sold pre march/april 2019 buyers- where the car would be able to conduct short and long drives almost anywhere without needing a driver to do anything at all.

This is not possible with any SAE level below 4... anything under 4 requires a driver to do something even if that something is just "act as the fallback to the system while it's in its ODD"

 

[gearchruncher]

2) Acknowledge that all the things Tesla's website said at the time of purchase apply to the purchaser, and form part of the contract.

Unfortunately that’s not what a contract is dear….

You've been shown what the buyer was shown during the purchase multiple times.

I think @Knightshade and @qdeathstar need to work this out.
A contract is worthless if it can't be referred to later. @Knightshade is acting like there is this magical moment on Tesla.com where you go from seeing marketing puffery to actually placing an order. Things before are irrelevant. Things after form part of the "contract."
But show me what I was shown on October 22nd, 2016, when I ordered one of my cars. I have all the documents Tesla sent or gave me as part of the purchase. None of them are a copy of what I was shown when I clicked through the order process. If you end up in court and the Judge says "show me the contract" how will Tesla pull up what the customer "saw during the purchase"?

And you're completely ignoring the thing I pointed out, which is that you can buy FSD on your phone today. Which leads to an interesting question:

Are you owed the FSD capabilities described during the vehicle purchase (Even if you didn't buy FSD) or only at the moment you bought FSD?

Tesla stated publicly they'd be upgrading anybody who OWNED FSD and needed upgraded HW...

I thought the only thing that mattered was what you are shown during checkout. Now things Tesla said "publicly" are things you are owed, but things on Tesla.com are not unless they are part of the checkout process? Tesla has said an awful lot publicly over the years...

Just as everyone buying today is owed a HW upgrade if needed and that too is explicitly listed in the purchase description but you keep pretending it's not.

Link? I just went through the purchase process and cannot find this. This is all it says. SOFTWARE UPDATES. Not HW updates:

In fact, the actual written purchase agreement (as of today) makes HW upgrades look pretty much excluded....:

 

[diplomat33]

Tesla doesn't owe anyone L4. That's ridiculous. They never used the term L4, which has a very specific definition wrt to the roles of the vehicle, the software, and driver.

Perhaps but I think Tesla does owe us what they advertised:

Tesla Autopilot page:

All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat.

FSD order page (2016):

All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don't say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on your calendar. Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on your phone summons it back to you.

I am not going to argue what SAE level this represents. But Tesla should deliver these features.

 

[Knightshade]

Link? I just went through the purchase process and cannot find this. This is all it says. SOFTWARE UPDATES. Not HW updates:

Dude.

Your own pic mentions the self driving computer.

Which, spoiler alert- is hardware.

It's increasingly difficult to read your posts as honest debate.

 

[powertoold]

Perhaps but I think Tesla does owe us what they advertised:

Tesla Autopilot page:
All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat.

FSD order page (2016):
All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don't say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on your calendar. Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on your phone summons it back to you.


I am not going to argue what SAE level this represents. But Tesla should deliver these features.

The first and second parts are satisfied by fsd beta (City Streets):

No action required can be interpreted as no driver input required. The car does all the necessary maneuvers to arrive at the destination. This is vastly different than current AP because current AP only lane keeps and changes lanes. It doesn't necessarily mean no safety / fallback driver required.

Since Tesla doesn't use the term L4, they have a lot of leeway in their interpretation.

 

[Knightshade]

The first and second parts are satisfied by fsd beta (City Streets):

No action required can be interpreted as no driver input required.

This is simply not true

Monitoring the road is an action

So is being prepared to take over.

 

[powertoold]

This is simply not true

Monitoring the road is an action

So is being prepared to take over.

Yes, that's your interpretation. But like I said, Tesla can say that action relates to driver input, actual physical movements / actions, not some mental state. And that's why it's important that Tesla did not say "level 4."

So City Streets can conduct entire trips without any driver input. That's what Tesla said in the fsd description.

 

[Knightshade]

Yes, that's your interpretation

No, that is basic English.

So City Streets can conduct entire trips without any driver input. That's what Tesla said in the fsd description.

Nope.

What it said was without requiring any action.

In the Tesla description you don't have to watch the road (which is an action)

In city streets you do have to watch the road which is an action

This isn't at all unclear

 

[dgatwood]

Tesla doesn't owe anyone L4. That's ridiculous. They never used the term L4, which has a very specific definition wrt to the roles of the vehicle, the software, and driver.

What was promised — being able to summon your car from across the country — is unachievable at level 3, and arguably not at level 4, though it depends on how close to L5 the ODD is.

 

[gearchruncher]

Your own pic mentions the self driving computer.

Which is Tesla's name for the current HW3. Kind of like you argue "FSD" in 2016 clearly meant buying FSD as "it is all that Tesla sold at that time."

You said it EXPLICILTY lists free hardware upgrades if needed.

Just as everyone buying today is owed a HW upgrade if needed and that too is explicitly listed in the purchase description but you keep pretending it's not.

Where? And how does this override the EXPLICT language in the purchase contract that says no free hardware upgrades?

 

[powertoold]

Nope.

What it said was without requiring any action.

In the Tesla description you don't have to watch the road (which is an action)

In city streets you do have to watch the road which is an action

This isn't at all unclear

How do you conclude what Tesla meant? Can you not see that this is your interpretation? You can simply force your interpretation on Tesla?

As I said, it is well within the description's words for Tesla to say that "action" only relates to driver input into the car, and they would have a great basis to say that, because of City Streets' vast difference compared to basic Autopilot, which constantly requires driver action to navigate to the destination.

 

[Knightshade]

How do you conclude what Tesla meant?

I don't care what they 'meant' I care what they 'said'

They said no action is required by the human in the seat.

Monitoring the road is an action, by the most basic English definitions of those words. Safety drivers for Waymo and others literally get paid to perform this action.

There isn't a debate to be had here.

Which is Tesla's name for the current HW3. Kind of like you argue "FSD" in 2016 clearly meant buying FSD as "it is all that Tesla sold at that time."

You said it EXPLICILTY lists free hardware upgrades if needed.

Right. That's HW3 right now. It's the only upgrade that exists.

And it's included for HW2.x buyers who purchase FSD today. Explicitly.

Where exactly are you getting lost THIS time in the 38th time you've had this exact thing explained to you already?

 

[powertoold]

Monitoring the road is an action, by the most basic English definitions of those words. Safety drivers for Waymo and others literally get paid to perform this action.

There isn't a debate to be had here.

Wow I just realized today that words have black and white definitions!

 

[Iain]

They owe at least L4. There's an argument they owe L5.

This is clear in the description of what they sold pre march/april 2019 buyers- where the car would be able to conduct short and long drives almost anywhere without needing a driver to do anything at all.

This is not possible with any SAE level below 4... anything under 4 requires a driver to do something even if that something is just "act as the fallback to the system while it's in its ODD"

Did Tesla promise an Autonomous car or Full Self Driving?

Apparently there is a real difference. Autonomous doesn’t need a human while FSD does.

What is an Autonomous Car? – How Self-Driving Cars Work | Synopsys

An autonomous car is a vehicle capable of sensing its environment and operating without human involvement. A human passenger is not required to take control of the vehicle at any time, nor is a human passenger required to be present in the vehicle at all. An autonomous car can go anywhere a...

www.synopsys.com

 

[rxlawdude]

Did Tesla promise an Autonomous car or Full Self Driving?

Apparently there is a real difference. Autonomous doesn’t need a human while FSD does.

What is an Autonomous Car? – How Self-Driving Cars Work | Synopsys

An autonomous car is a vehicle capable of sensing its environment and operating without human involvement. A human passenger is not required to take control of the vehicle at any time, nor is a human passenger required to be present in the vehicle at all. An autonomous car can go anywhere a...

www.synopsys.com

And this is where Tesla potentially gets into trouble, with the pre-2019 description.

 

[gearchruncher]

Right. That's HW3 right now. It's the only upgrade that exists.

I'm discussing the chance Tesla will upgrade people from HW3 to HW4 when that's needed. I agree HW2 to HW3 is included. But nothing indicates they will upgrade anyone to HW4 for free even if it's needed, and even you believe HW4 is needed, and in fact the explicit contract says they will not. This whole discussion started when someone asked "do you think HW3 is enough?" The only reason I brought up the HW2 to HW3 upgrade is to point out that Tesla is already being iffy about upgrades even when they had an explicit definition that the CAR had the HW needed (independent of if you bought FSD).

It's my opinion that anyone thinking that because they bought FSD that they will get HW4 if it's needed or if HW4 has any additional features is in for disappointment. Statements are not contracts as has been pointed out.

Based on previous statements and actions from Tesla, if HW4 were required for FSD then anybody who bought FSD would get the upgrade for free.

My excitement about V10 isn't anything to do with robotaxis- which I still don't think are coming anytime soon- but with getting a much better idea of if we'll see L3 or L4 highway driving anytime soon once the 4D rewrite gets applied there and which is the best I ever expected them to offer with this sensor package and was why I bought FSD back in 2018.

 

[cbrigante2]

Went to the FSD videos thread to...watch some videos and all I found was an endless debate about SAE levels and what was or wasn't promised.
Could we please keep the debates in the appropriate topics?