rxlawdude
Active Member
Cmon, man! Everyone knows Teslas are emission free.
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FSD is a fraud
- Thread starter TessP100D
- Start date
CyberGus
Not Just a Member
Spacep0d
Active Member
Indeed. There's a reasonable expectation. As you've mentioned, one might be entitled to a refund without being able to make a case for fraud. Barring some edge cases, full self-driving does work...but it's not 100% reliable yet because no system is. So, as mentioned in this thread, this would all factor in to what a reasonable person should expect.
To your other point, omission is indeed a form of lying. When sworn into courtroom testimony in the States, we're asked to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, where 'the whole truth' flags omission as deception. Then, there are reasonable and unreasonable omissions.....and more of the 'reasonable expectation' metric.
And, who doesn't love Sagan? Cosmos, Pale Blue Dot, and Contact (with Ann Druyan) are among my favorite books. Also, 'Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark' is highly-recommended as a primer (or refresher) on critical-thinking. Contact is also a brilliant movie. 'I'm okay to go.....okay to go....'
You will never get them to understand. Is is a cult, and Elon is that pastor who gets the money and buys the mansion and drives expensive cars. I got taken with the FSD for my 2022 Model S Plaid. Now, 2 days later, I found out Tesla is offering the EAP for 6K (which is already insanely expensive feature). The FSD is fine for highways but so is EAP. They are the same. The only difference (besides the 12K pricetag of FSD) is that FSD will "eventually" work in the city. Even the work "eventually" is not certain. In my opinion, it is a scam and the bots go crazy because you cannot say anything bad about their master. The car is great, the finishing is way better than my old 2015 Model S, good range but don't say it is FSD and it's worth it until I can actually leave my home and get somewhere that will make sense to have spent 12K for it. The yoke is ok too. Just have to get used to it. Hard to make u-turns but, well...you know. Eventually you get used to it.
There is also negligent misrepresentation which could be a basis for recovery as well. Especially in civil tort case involving consumer products, while nobody will go to jail, you can still get money if the remaining elements of fraud are proven (i.e., material fact, negligently misrepresented, believed that plaintiff would rely, and plaintiff in fact did rely). So, for example, if after this February 2019 explanation of "feature complete" by Musk: "Meaning the car will be able to find you in a parking lot, pick you up and take you all the way to your destination without an intervention. This year. I would say I am of certain of that, that is not a question mark," you went out and bought a car with FSD or an FSD add-on, then it seems to me you have a pretty could case to get your money back if the car in fact can't do those things.
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Please point me to the car companies that are doing this already. I'm sure the world is full of them, since you insinuate that the task is so easy and Tesla is just like, robbing you. Maybe you should contact your lawyer on that. We'd be pleased to know how that goes. Show us the mansion Elon is living in too, I'd like to see that along with the car he drives lol. Again, point me to the companies that are doing FSD so much better and how that is, point by point. We'll wait so you can enlighten us cultish, lost souls.
Where are you going with this? Elon is the richest human in the world. There are whole articles written about the multiple mansions he owns:
An inside look at all the houses owned by Elon Musk
In May, Elon Musk, the billionaire Tesla and SpaceX CEO tweeted that he would be "selling almost all physical possessions. Will own no house."...
www.re-thinkingthefuture.com
And as for his car? Centi-billionares are so beyond cars. This is the dude so rich he's buying Twitter just so some teenager can't post the location of his $70M Gulfstream Jet. (Oh, sorry, I mean so that there is no censorship on Twitter, but let's fire people at SpaceX for writing a letter about tweets).
Aside from futuristic rambling tweets by Elon, where have Tesla said FSD is level 5? Your logic appears to be "I want FSD to be level 5. It isnt level 5. Therefore its a fraud." Perhaps that's why people disliked your post?
It isnt always. My father is very sick and has dementia .. I have to "knowingly state falsehoods" to him otherwise he gets alarmed and can become very upset and agitated. Is that malicious?
‘Scam’ is a harsh word...it implies that Elon has no intention of making a car fully self drive and that he has no investment or employees engaged in the business of making a self driving car.
You and me and everyone on this forum are intelligent people...we know that apart from Kitt in Knight Rider that there is no self driving car outside of a completely controlled environment....we also all understand about investing in the future and purchasing cutting edge technology....your outrage is not shared by everyone
Just because FSD in 2022 with the great “vision only” and “dojo” and “new stack” runs into green poles and goes the WRONG WAY DOWN ONE WAY STREETS IN BROAD DAYLIGHT FOR $12,000…isn’t anything to get upset about. Calm down people
Not level 5, but it's universally agreed that Tesla advertised FSD as L4 between 2016-2019, and the simple fact is that in 2022 it is L2.
If you're going to get pedantic about words, the definition of malicious is "characterized by malice; intending or intended to do harm." - so you intend no malice so that is not malicious. Elon stating falsehoods if the point is to increase stock value or get people to buy FSD would be malicious as it does harm people financially.
That's literally the problem. Tesla started taking money in 2016 for FSD. They showed a video that said no driver was needed. Yet "we all know" in 2022 that we're nowhere close to that, and even more there are no refunds, even if you did a 4 year lease on the car and literally got no features delivered for that payment. There are people with 2016/17 cars that can't even get L2 FSD beta because their hardware doesn't support it and Tesla wants yet more money for upgrades. It's this buy now, maybe get a feature in the future that makes FSD look not like a product, but a risky investment, however it is sold as a product and has been for 6 years now.
Even worse, there *are* self driving cars out there now, they just aren't Teslas.
Cue up the usual poster who comes in to tell you that none of the FSD money you paid has benefitted Tesla yet. Or some nonsense like that.
I like to think of it as more like crowdfunding. You invest because you believe in the vision of the company and you gain benefits by having the prototype product and the belief that it will gain in value
$12k...to go the wrong way down one way streets. In broad daylight.
You think it was clear to people buying in 2016 that this was an "investment" in the company?
If this is an investment, why does Tesla sell it as a product with specific features and timelines listed, with the license tied to the specific VIN, instead of via a different model that looks more like an investment or kickstarter?
If this were anything else with any other company...it would be called a money grab..taking money for something(s) that were promised and not delivered anywhere near promised timelines...with no refunds and no ability to even transfer it to the next purchase to at least have more time to get the not delivered features..
NYC to LA with no human input by Dec 2017...cars dropping you off and parking themselves in parking lots....etc, etc, etc.
NYC to LA with no human input by Dec 2017...cars dropping you off and parking themselves in parking lots....etc, etc, etc.
You didn't even read the article you posted there. I'll help. The article mentioned that he sold all his houses except for the one in San Jose. And the article doesn't even mention the house he bought in Austin, which is a prefab that's worth about 50,000 where he sleeps mostly. Because of this you can tell its an old article, even though it doesn't have a date, which feels manipulative. But the article does say he sleeps on a couch at the Fremont location, or at friends houses. Or did you read that. I'm not a Musk apologist because he has much to answer too, but I don't like seeing posts citing 'facts' unless they are actually factual . As the richest man on the planet, he lives quite modestly. But if you only read headlines, you'll never catch that. There's a guy in my old neighborhood that is a billionaire, yet he is so cheap he won't fix his own roof and a tarp has been over his house for about 10 years. People are like that sometimes. They are not all cookie cutter.Where are you going with this? Elon is the richest human in the world. There are whole articles written about the multiple mansions he owns:
An inside look at all the houses owned by Elon Musk
In May, Elon Musk, the billionaire Tesla and SpaceX CEO tweeted that he would be "selling almost all physical possessions. Will own no house."...
And as for his car? Centi-billionares are so beyond cars. This is the dude so rich he's buying Twitter just so some teenager can't post the location of his $70M Gulfstream Jet. (Oh, sorry, I mean so that there is no censorship on Twitter, but let's fire people at SpaceX for writing a letter about tweets).
As a shareholder, if Musk didn't have a Jet to get around in, I'd file suit. His time is monumentally precious, obviously. If you paid attention, he drives a Model S and a Model X. The S has the alpha version of FSD, that he tweets about often.
