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FSD is a fraud

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The article mentioned that he sold all his houses except for the one in San Jose.
Oh wow, what a normal guy, he sold all of his mansions (well, except one) and now has news articles written about his $50K small house at his spaceport, just like all of us.
What is your point here?
As the richest man on the planet, he lives quite modestly.
Yeah, tweeting about how Tesla workers need to come to the office or be fired while he's in France with his girlfriend, while in the middle of buying Twitter as a single owner. All of this "lives modestly" stuff is just more marketing manipulation by Elon. But one thing we do know, he considers democrats to be the party of hate. What a great guy.

None of this matters for the topic at hand, which is the fact that FSD has been sold since 2016 and people that bought it then still have no functionality for that purchase unless they have spent even more money on HW upgrades, and even then all they have is L2 beta "city streets".
 
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Hint: The super wealthy dont always have 100% of all properties in their names.

See Russian Oligarchs for reference...
Elons a rich (moderator edit), but clearly you've not done your research on the man to make such bold wide-eyed claims. And that is sad since there is monumental technical progress happening under our noses where the focus is. It's just crazy to watch. Russian Oligarchs have no skin in the technological or sustainability game.
 
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And that is sad since there is monumental technical progress happening under our noses where the focus is. It's just crazy to watch.
I've owned a Tesla since 2016 and have owned 4 in total. Lots of reasonable people disagree on the rate of progress and the way Tesla has treated customers. Given I bought all of them before 2019, all were advertised as having city streets autosteer being available "later this year" in 2019. Then 2020. Then 2021.
 
None of this matters for the topic at hand, which is the fact that FSD has been sold since 2016 and people that bought it then still have no functionality for that purchase unless they have spent even more money on HW upgrades, and even then all they have is L2 beta "city streets".
Show me the competitors doing anything remotely similar? Super Cruise? Blue Cruise? They are EAP equivalent, at best. The current and future iterations of FSD are attempting something miraculous. They are not using HD maps, geo-fenced locations, with a ~$150,000 LIDAR+ sensor suite and a trunk full of GPUs. Just cameras and HW3. I suspect it will never reach L4 with the current cameras or HW3, but I'm OK with that. I'm just glad someone has the balls to push the envelop, and ignores the ankle-biters.
 
The current and future iterations of FSD are attempting something miraculous.
Attempting being a key word. Since 2016. Always just a few months away!
I'm just glad someone has the balls to push the envelop, and ignores the ankle-biters.
What a crazy risk they are taking! Here, please pay us now, and maybe you will get something someday. NO REFUNDS.
I suspect it will never reach L4 with the current cameras or HW3, but I'm OK with that.
That's great you are OK with it. But I think you can also see how people would be annoyed given Tesla advertised "includes all hardware needed for L4" in 2016-2019 and "coming this year."

There is a single issue here, and it's that Tesla offers no refunds and ties FSD to a VIN. The fact that they offer no recourse for people that bought yet never were delivered anything in the course of their ownership is unacceptable.
 
How many times do people, in their lifetimes, buy something that doesn't exist at the time they purchase it, with the expectation that it will come at some point in the future? I can think of a few - like building a house. You pay contractors for work, and at some point you should have a house to show for it. You pay for tickets to a show with the understanding that the show will happen when they say it will. I'm sure you can think of other examples as well.

The difference is that most of these examples involve a contract, which gives you recourse if the other side of the contract fails to deliver. You can take the contractor to court (jury, small claims, or arbitration) if they don't deliver your completed house by the time set out in the contract. Many times there are clauses in the contract to redress these issues - such as SLAs (service level agreements), giving you financial recompense should the service not be performed at the specified time in the contract.

While I totally understand the frustration some people have with FSD, I'm not sure what options are available to them. As has been stated, the goal of delivering FSD has been pushed back repeatedly over the years, since 2016. But there has never been contractual obligations from Tesla on these dates (it's always been stated as "coming soon"). And there is no legal action you can take for broken promises (Elon's tweets regarding when features will/should be available), except in cases of promissory estoppel, which forms a contract between both parties.

We should have seen thousands of lawsuits, or at lease massive class-action suits against Tesla since 2016. Court orders handed out forcing Tesla to change their FSD sales practices due to violating consumer protection laws or commerce regulations. But we haven't seen anything like this in the US.

On the contrary, Tesla, since 2016, has become one of the highest valued car companies in the world. They sell every car they make, even today, with many people waiting months to get their car delivered. And the most damning statistic of all is repeat buyers. Tesla has one of the highest brand loyalties in the industry with over 70% of buyers purchasing another Tesla. If people were so pissed with Tesla over FSD and broken promises since 2016, why are they going back? Even poor build-quality, which was widely reported in media, didn't seem to stop people from buying and re-buying a Tesla.

There are definitely people who feel duped and cheated for their FSD purchase. It doesn't matter what anyone says, such as "buyer beware", it's just not going to ease the sense of outrage they have. The only thing they can do is hopefully change the company through the free-market - vote with their dollars.
 
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Elons a rich asshole, but clearly you've not done your research on the man to make such bold wide-eyed claims. And that is sad since there is monumental technical progress happening under our noses where the focus is. It's just crazy to watch. Russian Oligarchs have no skin in the technological or sustainability game.
So you know for a fact, that Elon has 100% of all of his properties in his name and NOT in the name of LLC's, etc?
 
You're absolutely right, and this is an excellent regulation. However, Tesla does not advertise - there are no billboards, TV spots, magazine ads, nor any other advertising dollars spent by the company where this regulation would apply.

On a total aside - even this regulation is hard to enforce due to hyperbole. When you see a billboard that says "#1 Hamburger in America", do you really think it's the #1 hamburger and you should just stop eating any other hamburger as they all pale in comparison? :)
 
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I’ve had my Model S since December 2014 - the excitement over AP1 was brilliant and on the whole, it performs as promised

I was almost tempted to trade it in for something that was capable of FSD, because Tesla promised this within months - and they had been true to their word with the first iteration of autopilot, so why would one doubt them?

Well I’m so glad I didn’t fall for the hype. I would be unbelievably pissed off if I had purchased a new car, FSD then the hardware upgrades, only to have no greater functionality than I started with

I totally get the frustration - FSD hopefully isn’t a pipe dream but at this point it sure does look like it. Having convinced many people to purchase a Tesla based on my experiences and the manufacturer’s promises, I don’t like being made to look either silly or a liar. Tesla has let me down in this regard - my opinion/advice to those that ask me now is now the cars are great, but don’t spend a penny on extra features that don’t actually work
 
I totally get the frustration - FSD hopefully isn’t a pipe dream but at this point it sure does look like it. Having convinced many people to purchase a Tesla based on my experiences and the manufacturer’s promises, I don’t like being made to look either silly or a liar. Tesla has let me down in this regard - my opinion/advice to those that ask me now is now the cars are great, but don’t spend a penny on extra features that don’t actually work
This. This is what people can do to force change - avail themselves of the free market.
 
Oh, change is coming. Its absolutely...is coming...






 
But there has never been contractual obligations from Tesla on these dates (it's always been stated as "coming soon").
Tesla's FSD page when you went to add it to a car configuration and the page in the app where you could buy FSD both said "coming this year" in 2019. 2020, and 2021. A measurable date, as part of the contract of the purchase. No different than saying "this car has 6 cylinders" as part of the product description and then delivering a car with 4. Not "best hamburger" marketing puffery.

The reason there aren't a lot of lawsuits? Because yeah, by 2020, everyone knew what was up with FSD, and people stopped buying FSD, especially at the higher prices. Nobody knows the actual FSD take rate, but it's estimated as below 10% on the 3/Y cars. This means people have learned not to buy it, or are in the faithful group that wants to "invest" in the company, And realistically, they have also been given everything promised, so they have no future claims.

Tesla didn't make that many cars in 2016-2019, and a lot of those FSD buyers have moved on to a different car. While they owned the car, they kept buying into the "6 more months" hype, but now they are done, the car is sold, the loss is forgotten. Tesla pulled it off.

Don't forget- if you bought FSD after April 2019, you have been given EVERYTHING Tesla promised. City streets autosteer is all you contractually get. Not L3 or L4 driving. So you better be OK with FSD beta as all you get forever for your $12K, because that's all Tesla owes you.
 
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Tesla's FSD page when you went to add it to a car configuration and the page in the app where you could buy FSD both said "coming this year" in 2019. 2020, and 2021. A measurable date, as part of the contract of the purchase. No different than saying "this car has 6 cylinders" as part of the product description and then delivering a car with 4. Not "best hamburger" marketing puffery.
Then they might have a recourse to get a prorated refund. They can start with contacting Tesla with their request. If that doesn't work, they can seek legal council or small claims court (since the cost of FSD back then was under the threshold for small claims).

(moderator note - small claims’ limits vary by state. Many are well under the cost of FSD)
 
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Then they might have a recourse to get a prorated refund. They can start with contacting Tesla with their request.
Tesla offers no refunds, people have tried. Tesla won't even respond to a request. Your one recourse is court, and like you say, given the damage amounts, recovering with a lawyer is likely not worth it, plus most people didn't send a letter when they bought allowing non-small claims court cases. One very creative option is to use Tesla's arbitration path, which they must pay for, so at least just filing against them costs them money, and people have actually won with this path,
 
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Tesla offers no refunds, people have tried. Tesla won't even respond to a request. Your one recourse is court, and like you say, given the damage amounts, recovering with a lawyer is likely not worth it, plus most people didn't send a letter when they bought allowing non-small claims court cases. One very creative option is to use Tesla's arbitration path, which they must pay for, so at least just filing against them costs them money, and people have actually won with this path,
In the end I think it's a small number of grievances in the grand scheme. In 2021 Tesla sold 930K cars. I think I read someone say 7% take rate for FSD, meaning 65,000 people bought FSD just last year. How many are dissatisfied enough to bring legal action? How many are unhappy, but not enough to take action. We know there are a few hundred complaints to regulators over phantom braking. But even if it was a thousand people complaining, that's only 1.5%. To me that means there are a lot of people satisfied with their purchase, are not experiencing problems, or are not inconvenienced enough to seek remediation.
 
But even if it was a thousand people complaining, that's only 1.5%. To me that means there are a lot of people satisfied with their purchase, are not experiencing problems, or are not inconvenienced enough to seek remediation.
Or again, anyone that bought post-2019 has had their contract fulfilled. FSD beta meets the "city streets autosteer" function. Nothing else was promised in any description (remember, "Full Self Driving" is just a name, it means nothing). Only pre-2019 buyers are owed anything more.
 
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Oh, change is coming. Its absolutely...is coming...






One can only hope with your predicted changes that you will move on to those forums to “support“ those brands with your wisdom.