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FSD is a fraud

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I suppose at the end of the day, I don't really understand what all the consternation is about. Tesla absolutely has a world class AI team, they have the dojo supercomputer/training for the NN (which is why they laid off the labelers), they have the FSD-dedicated, redundant, internally-designed chips in HW3, as well as HW4 on the way, and they have the AI job postings, etc, etc. It's not a fraud. It's real. It's amazing that they are trying at all, given the risks. Do I expect them to deliver on all promises and timelines? No. Do I expect them to circle the wagons when they miss? Yeah, like any other publicly owned, for profit company.

When I drive my car home from work this afternoon, I will experience about 95% magic and 5% WTF. Pretty f---ing cool if you ask me.
 
I suppose at the end of the day, I don't really understand what all the consternation is about
It's super simple.
Tesla showed a video in 2016 that had a car drive between two locations, in traffic, with a disclaimer that the driver was not needed at all. Car even parked itself in a busy parking lot.
They then said the cars they were now selling were capable of this in hardware even if you didn't pay for the SW, but you could also buy the SW now. If you didn't buy it with the car, it was much more expensive to buy later, so, ahem, you should really buy now.
Then they said getting the FSD features in SW was 6 months away.

It's now 2022, and the car doesn't do anywhere near what they described. For many 2016-2018 owners, it doesn't do any of this at all because the HW is not compatible. But they already have your money, and they offer no refunds.

You don't get why selling something for thousands of dollars, showing a video of it working, and telling people they won't need hardware upgrades would be annoying when the reality is that 6 years later, you have absolutely nothing for that purchase, and Tesla keeps saying "we're working on it, but we offer no refunds, please keep waiting."?

When I drive my car home from work this afternoon, I will experience about 95% magic and 5% WTF. Pretty f---ing cool if you ask me.
Even that is a bit of F-U, I got mine attitude. What percentage of people that have bought FSD have been "let" into the beta program? Where did Tesla ever advertise that FSD required meeting an arbitrary safety score threshold? You can't even pay $6K more than EAP on a brand new Tesla today and be guaranteed you will get FSD in any timeline. It's not a product you can buy, it's a gamble you can make, but it's sold as if it's a product.

That's the only issue. Tesla can develop "self driving" all they want, and we all hope they do and do amazing. The only issue is that they charge for it now, for a completely undefined feature set and delivery date, and put all the risk on those customers as they offer no refunds, even when the only issue is Tesla's complete non-delivery of anything after 6 years.
as well as HW4 on the way,
Oh yeah, and this too. HW2 was "all the HW needed for FSD." But HW2.5, and HW3 later, we're all excited for HW4....
How are you gonna feel when Tesla tells you HW4 is a $4K upgrade to your car to keep getting feature updates? Don't think they won't, they met their city streets autosteer feature set, they are done with you, just like they are done with the MCU1 and HW2/2.5 cars even though they promised those owners more and delivered way less.
 
Not level 5, but it's universally agreed that Tesla advertised FSD as L4 between 2016-2019, and the simple fact is that in 2022 it is L2.
They made no mention of "L-anything" .. though they were wildly optimistic about schedules and capabilities, to be sure. Today, they are aiming/advertising L2 (though technically they still make no mention of L-anything).
 
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to some, its "wildly optimistic".
To others? Its "deceptive marketing".

But do we REALLY think the richest man in the world, who led SpaceX to achieve what its achieved, REALLY thought Tesla's would go from NYC to LA with NO human input, by December 2017, when he made that claim in 2016?

You REALLY think he TRULY believed that?

Some of you also believe there will be "1 million robotaxis on the road by end of 2020" as well, dont you.

🤣 🤣
 
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They made no mention of "L-anything" .. though they were wildly optimistic about schedules and capabilities, to be sure.
Agreed. They never said L anything. What they said in a description of the product was that the driver was only needed for legal reasons and could complete a full drive down to picking a parking space with no intervention. Thus describing a system which is L4 across a fairly broad ODD, and does not rely on a human at all for at least routes commonly driven by passenger cars.

"wildly optimistic about capabilities" - That's like saying it's OK if someone sells you a house that you can move into in 3 months and then 4 years later shows up with a garden shed. "Sorry, I was wildly optimistic about my capabilities, but NO REFUNDS." Or you buy a hamburger and they hand you a slice of raw meat because they were "wildly optimistic" but you prepaid so NO REFUNDS. You see how silly that sounds that consumers should just accept that? It's even worse when you try to defend it with "well, now they only advertise hot dogs, the guy that ordered after you got a bun, and they are working on the machine for to give ketchup to next year's customers, so why are you complaining!?"
 
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Agreed. They never said L anything. What they said in a description of the product was that the driver was only needed for legal reasons and could complete a full drive down to picking a parking space with no intervention. Thus describing a system which is L4 across a fairly broad ODD, and does not rely on a human at all for at least routes commonly driven by passenger cars.

"wildly optimistic about capabilities" - That's like saying it's OK if someone sells you a house that you can move into in 3 months and then 4 years later shows up with a garden shed. "Sorry, I was wildly optimistic about my capabilities, but NO REFUNDS." Or you buy a hamburger and they hand you a slice of raw meat because they were "wildly optimistic" but you prepaid so NO REFUNDS. You see how silly that sounds that consumers should just accept that?
You are comparing a new technology development effort to a couple of well-known production efforts. These are two very, very different things.
 
You are comparing a new technology development effort to a couple of well-known production efforts. These are two very, very different things.
Agreed. Which is why Tesla should sell FSD not as a product, but a risky investment. Sell shares in it. Do an NFT. Do not let someone click twice in an app, charge them $6K, and then deliver nothing to them for who knows how long (maybe never if they aren't a "safe enough" driver).

Remember that while you have had a car for 9 months and have FSD beta, most people that bought in 70 months ago do not, despite Tesla continuously saying it will come soon. Explain what "product" works that way, and why that is OK. Show me where someone that bought FSD in 2016 was clearly informed just how risky that "purchase" was and that it wasn't a "purchase" like anything else they had ever bought.
 
Oh, change is coming. Its absolutely...is coming...






You made me LOL. These exact same claims have been made since 2013. The big automakers were supposed to have overtaken Tesla already before 2020. That obviously didn't happen.
Volkswagen Will Be The Biggest Electric-Car Maker In 2018, It Says

Now with heavy battery supply constraints as well as general car parts constraints, it's going to be even harder.

Nio has been saying they will overtake Tesla for a while now:
NIO's William Li says they'll overtake Tesla one day - CnTechPost
What your report neglected to mention however, is that even with a shutdown in between, Tesla's China factory alone shipped 215k units in the first 5 months (about 95k were exports, about 120k China domestic sales) vs 50,827 for NIO inclusive of June. Nio has a long way to go even beating Tesla's China factory alone (or even China sales alone excluding exports), much less Tesla's international volume.
China: Made In China Tesla EV Sales Recovered In May 2022

The actual EV maker overtaking Tesla's volume in China is Wuling by making an inexpensive souped-up NEV, but that's not a segment that possible to make profitable in most markets (most automakers have left the mini-car market in the Western markets), so relatively meaningless if talking about overtaking Tesla overall.
China: Plug-In Car Sales Climbed To Over 400,000 In May 2022
 
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Agreed. They never said L anything. What they said in a description of the product was that the driver was only needed for legal reasons and could complete a full drive down to picking a parking space with no intervention. Thus describing a system which is L4 across a fairly broad ODD, and does not rely on a human at all for at least routes commonly driven by passenger cars.

"wildly optimistic about capabilities" - That's like saying it's OK if someone sells you a house that you can move into in 3 months and then 4 years later shows up with a garden shed. "Sorry, I was wildly optimistic about my capabilities, but NO REFUNDS." Or you buy a hamburger and they hand you a slice of raw meat because they were "wildly optimistic" but you prepaid so NO REFUNDS. You see how silly that sounds that consumers should just accept that? It's even worse when you try to defend it with "well, now they only advertise hot dogs, the guy that ordered after you got a bun, and they are working on the machine for to give ketchup to next year's customers, so why are you complaining!?"
I didn't say it was acceptable, though apparently you wanted to read it that way.

Okay so you and a few vocal others here are angry at Tesla, with perhaps some justification, that they have eased back on the feature set for FSD. Now what? Are you just going to post again and again and again about how outrageous it all is and how outraged you are and how Tesla are the worst car company in the world and anyone who says otherwise is a brain-dead fanboy? What is your goal here?
 
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I’m not that happy with the buying FSD and buying a house analogy...it’s closer to buying a house for a fixed cost then the builder not only comes back to fix the faults but says that one day he will return and build you an extension and then another floor, change the kitchen all for no extra cost...with the only caveat is you can never sell the house🤔🥺
Analogies are difficult because this is a unique buying experience...nobody asked you to do it..no salesman bullied or harassed you...no subliminal messages on tv...you had to research it yourself and want it
 
no product does exactly what it says on the can....a vacuum cleaner is only a partial vacuum and a car maybe a horseless carriage but what if it’s towing a horse trailer ?
Well, I can tell you right now if I was towing a horse trailer with a horseless carriage I would sue them to kingdom come. They can't get away with stuff like that........
 
A reminder to stay on topic (ish) and not to make personal attacks. There is definitely some misbehavior remaining in thread, even since I became moderator, but we need a few healthy outlets for FSD angst so I’m editing slowly. Here is my take on the house analogy…

Most of us have lived in a house from the same contractor. Some a while ago and some recently. Some bought while others leased.

But the contractor offered a magic pool option where a copy of magic pool that is built at the contractor’s office would appear and extend your backyard.

The magic pool prices changed, sometimes down, but usually up. But it’s been five years and the pool isn’t finished. Different people have different versions of the pool. Some have very little.

Sometimes people drowned in the pool. But that happens at pools, so it is hard to know whose fault it is.

In the last couple of years the contractor changed the sales language to sound more like a hot tub.

Some homeowners don’t like to swim, so they don’t spend time thinking about people’s pools.
 
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A buddy of mine got one of the first M3s off the line, and he purchased EAP but not FSD. He thought the features in EAP were worth the money and had value to him. He's still happy with his purchase to this day. When I got my MY, there was only FSD available, and I thought the features being offered were worth the money. That was my personal choice. I saw the "Coming Soon" on Autosteer on City Streets, and I took that as the cherry on top if they can get it working, but I didn't put any value in that feature. I use every feature of the FSD package nearly every time I drive. I use AP on freeways when I've got a long drive ahead. I enjoy Auto Lane Change when I'm using AP/NoA. I use NoA when going to a destination on navigation. I use Autopark when in parking lots (haven't tried out parallel parking yet), and in my garage (which is a very tight space). I use Summon every time I get my car out of the garage. And before I was invited into FSD Beta, I used Traffic Light and Stop control on city streets. To *me* these features have value, and I was willing to pay for them, and I get enjoyment from them.

I totally appreciate that those features may not have value for others - and they feel duped for paying that amount of money for features they don't enjoy. I don't know how to help those people. My understanding before I bought my Tesla was that there is a 48-hour refund option for EAP and FSD. Back then, Phantom Braking was pretty bad, so my AP experiences weren't as good as they are now. But I saw the potential and decided to keep the software. And, fortunately for me, they've ironed out most of *my* PB problems.

I don't push the features on anyone - I don't say you're an idiot for not buying FSD or EAP. All I do is give people my experiences and hope that helps someone in some way. When someone says they have terrible Phantom Braking and can't go down the street for a few miles without constant problems, I don't say they're stupid. I simply say that has not been my experience and try to help them with setting adjustments, or calibration procedures, or suggest they open service tickets to get the car checked out. And several people have seen improvements from my, and other's suggestions - and even had service replace equipment on their cars which improved their situation.

Now - for those who placed a significant value on Autosteer on City Streets (some place ALL the value on that one feature), I don't know what to say to help you. You feel betrayed and outraged that Tesla has not released the feature out of Beta yet, or that you didn't get an invite into the FSD Beta program, or that the car does not do everything Elon says it would on Twitter by the timetable he laid out. Those are all perfectly reasonable complaints. You have a few options available to you: Negotiate with Tesla for a prorated refund given your circumstances. If that fails, seek legal counsel for options available to you in your state - you may have a cause of action depending on your circumstances.
 
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Allow me to tell you about a 12 mile pharmacy run from the Oakland hills to Kaiser hospital in San Leandro last night.

I started on the narrow twisted hilly streets where I live, down onto freeway 13 West, then merging onto freeway 580 West. After about 8 miles I exited to traverse residential San Leandro, with a couple dozen speed bumps, then through messy stop-sign filled Old San Leandro. Traffic in downtown San Leandro was stalled, cars pulling in and out of parking spots. Then along the BART elevated tracks, and finally over an overpass across the 880 freeway, followed by a right turn into the hospital parking lot. See the route below. The most challenging I think was on the jam-packed streets of rush hour San Leandro.

All of this with 3 fingers wrapped around the wheel at 3 o'clock, for safety, and comfort, but also to touch up max speed to my taste. On this entire stop and go route I disengaged (and flagged) once, when my car hesitated at a premature right turn into the hospital parking lot. I should have left things alone, as by then the car was already heading for the more appropriate parking lot entrance 700 feet further, from where it drove around the parking lot towards the hospital building entrance. I finally switched to Manual to hunt for a blue spot near the entrance. The bottom line? An impartial passenger would call it flawless automation on both freeways and city streets.

I use the automation all the time. I'm very happy with what I got under the "FSD" label, even on drives when I disengage a few times. I don't know levels from bevels, but I'd say this is very similar to what was "promised". It's also very VERY useful. The fact that such new tech is being delivered incrementally, and behind schedule, doesn't surprise me at all, as I've worked in hardware/software development for decades.

If I didn't have and didn't regularly use FSD Beta, I wouldn't know what I was missing.
Most significantly, I wouldn't know how well, or poorly, it actually performs.


In the absence of experience, I might even be like one of the present haters who
keep ranting about missing Levels, and about how bad (and fraudulent) FSD is.


HomeToKaiser2022-07-01.jpg
 
And the most damning statistic of all is repeat buyers. Tesla has one of the highest brand loyalties in the industry with over 70% of buyers purchasing another Tesla. If people were so pissed with Tesla over FSD and broken promises since 2016, why are they going back? Even poor build-quality, which was widely reported in media, didn't seem to stop people from buying and re-buying a Tesla.
Repeat buyer here. Leased a Model S in 2016. Replaced it with purchased 2019 Model S and 2019 model 3. Both have FSD. I’ve evangelized Tesla to all my friends and family since 2016. But not any more.

FSD was a cheat. Car workmanship has been shoddy. Musk turned into a d-bag whose actions have also undercut his early environmental message. Teslas in the Bay Area are boring and samey. Real competition is finally out there. I’m on the wait list for a F-150 and I’m flipping the Model S when I’m up.

I’m not saying Tesla’s sales are doing poorly now or anything. But brand loyalty will take years to move because people buy cars so infrequently.
 
I like the yoke.

With regard to FSD and beta, name nonwithstanding, as a current level 2 system it is best thought of as an extremely advanced driver assist. If you expect it to handle 100% of situations perfectly you’ll be disappointed. But it handles the vast majority of driving just fine. As long as you keep an eye out for janky situations where you know it can struggle, it’s a great enhancement and one of the most advanced and flexible driver assist systems available on a production car. Just set your expectations appropriately, the current software stack is not a door to door autonomous driver that can handle all situations.