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FSD may require a hardware upgrade...
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lunitiks
Cool James & Black Teacher
What am I even talking about?
I'm talking about the fact that all Teslas, since mid october, have 8 cameras, 1 radar, 12 ultrasonics + GPS. That's no "camera only" system. That's a "all sensors except lidar" system.
Tesla (Elon Musk) has several times pointed out thar Lidar, in their (his) opinion, is not necessary. I don't think you or I can sit here and judge this decision based on what other car manufacurers are using (testing). So what if Faraday, Lucid, Volvo or others include a thousand lidars. Good on them. Bad for their consumers, that actually have to pay for all this sensory surplus.
Let's wait and see. I'm absolutely on your side if the absence of Lidar is what causes L5 or L4 not being obtainable.
Right now I'm in the "These cameras, radars and ultrasonics will be useless in ordinary, cross polar circle or otherwise "challenging" enviroments, because you'll actually need a person to wipe them clean all the time"-camp
I'm talking about the fact that all Teslas, since mid october, have 8 cameras, 1 radar, 12 ultrasonics + GPS. That's no "camera only" system. That's a "all sensors except lidar" system.
Tesla (Elon Musk) has several times pointed out thar Lidar, in their (his) opinion, is not necessary. I don't think you or I can sit here and judge this decision based on what other car manufacurers are using (testing). So what if Faraday, Lucid, Volvo or others include a thousand lidars. Good on them. Bad for their consumers, that actually have to pay for all this sensory surplus.
Let's wait and see. I'm absolutely on your side if the absence of Lidar is what causes L5 or L4 not being obtainable.
Right now I'm in the "These cameras, radars and ultrasonics will be useless in ordinary, cross polar circle or otherwise "challenging" enviroments, because you'll actually need a person to wipe them clean all the time"-camp
It is a camera only system.
The ultrasonic are only good for precision parking for example. They are only good to 26 ft.
They can't be trusted for anything other than that.
This leaves 8 cameras and 1 radar,
If you think that one radar counts for something then you are delusional.
For this to not be a camera only system it would need surround radars.
At night in freeway/roads with no light for example, the side and back facing cameras are literally useless.
That's literally 5 cameras rendered useless.
So you are essentially driving with 3 cameras which is really only 1 camera because they are facing the same direction.
So you are self-driving with 1 camera and a very narrow radar. Look at the picture of the radar at tesla.com/autopilot.
Its so narrow that you can avoid being detected up to 25ft away and still be in the trajectory of the car.
How do you make turns or watch for upcoming cars from the left and right at an intersection for example with one camera and 1 narrow radar?
Plus there are many more cases.
come on wake up. This is a camera only system and its called "Tesla Vision" on purpose. Tesla is the only company that is using only one system without complimentary system.
It is interesting that Waymo has developed short range lidar to use instead of ultrasonics. I suppose LIDAR covering all distances produces a very coherent and uniform 3D map.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The Volvo's forward facing LIDAR serves the same functionality as a radar and camera unit does (except with much shorter range). I see people again talking about LIDAR as if it is some sort or magic or as if all Lidar is equal.
Volvo's Self-Driving Program Will Have Redundancy For Everything
Volvo have been using this type of low-lost Lidar in its City Safety system for a while already and its capabilities are only suitable for level 2 type system. This is not the same as the 360 degree rotating lidars that can actually do a full point cloud of its surroundings.
Demand skyrockets for collision-avoidance sensors
There was a discussion on the differences on the other thread:
My car is learning a lot but.... what? and how?
I'm not seeing how the inclusion of similar cheap forward LIDAR units would make any significant difference between radar+camera detection. And about overhead signs, that is just a software issue at the moment (AP1 doesn't have such issues with only radar and single camera).
And from Volvo's system, it seems they agree that the puck based 360 degree lidars are not necessary for level 5.
Ignoring the ultrasonic sensors (which provide some redundancy at shorter ranges), going from the diagram on their site, Tesla has triple to quadruple redundancy on the forward view and double redundancy on the rear view. What they don't have is dual-type sensor coverage for all angles (meaning both cameras and radar coverage).
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I agree on the ultrasonics (although I will add they are practical also in low speed urban environments, not just parking), but not on the rest.
Except for the rear color camera and main front camera (which in the AP1 had a red channel), Tesla uses monochrome low light cameras similar to those used in security cameras. The taillights are federally required to be visible from 1000 feet away; reflective illumination range and angle obviously will vary and probably a lot less than 1000 feet, but the taillights will provide illumination for the rear cameras to get a picture even in pitch blackness with no other lights (no moonlight or street lights). The direct side view they will not have illumination except for side markers.
As for front coverage. They have quadruple coverage in the narrow view (3 cameras and 1 radar). On the front-side view they have dual coverage (wide camera plus side camera). The headlights are the source of illumination (as they are for humans).
I do not agree that the 3 front cameras are the same as 1 camera just because they face the same direction. The field of views of those cameras will be completely different and the lenses have different characteristics in terms of glare (so it is unlikely all the cameras will be susceptible to glare at the same time). The same principle applies to front-side coverage (where the wide angle front may get glare at a certain angle), but the different position of the b-pillar cameras will not because it is from a different angle.
lunitiks
Cool James & Black Teacher
I created a new thread focused on the camera suite only: AP2.0 Cameras: Capabilities and limitations?
@stopcrazypp please chime in, you seem to have technical understanding on this topic
@stopcrazypp please chime in, you seem to have technical understanding on this topic
Just like the buyback they did for the AP1 cars and it's On-ramp to Off-ramp and Summon on private road feature? Oh... no, wait... that never happened! Neither will a buyback for FSD.
Not even remotely the same thing.
1) AP1 has delivered *most* of what was promised.
2) FSD (with AP2 hardware) has delivered 0 of what was promised so far.
My comment was in context of if they NEVER provide FSD and require a hardware upgrade in order to provide FSD.
I've had no more issues at night on two occasions as compared to daytime use. Same weaknesses similar performance. Granted it was a really well marked highway with overhead lighting but it is trickier for humans.
I am glad you feel that's the case... but it's almost exactly the same thing. I disagree that it's delivered most of what it's promised. It's failed to deliver most of what it's promised. The only thing it has delivered as promised is lane keeping... and even that is questionable due to the constant nagging. There is no summon (moving forward and backwards and getting stopped by garage lips is not summon, it's just a remote control car with no steering.), there is no on-ramp to off-ramp, there is no stop sign/light detection (but that's forgivable because I don't think that was a promise, more of a "hopefully," so no problem there), no blind spot detection.
The only thing it HAS delivered on is TACC. That works like promised. Nothing else about AP1 works as promised in the beginning. Nothing. Not a single thing. Am I complaining? No... it is what it is. I'm disappointed, but so be it. But I've learned my lesson and I don't expect AP2 to be any different... virtually nothing that was promised in the beginning will come to pass with the current iteration. What we will see with AP2 cars is probably what was promised with AP1. AP2 promises will probably eventually be fulfilled by AP3.
Ok Mr Alternate facts.
What AP1 has delivered:
1) Forward collision warning.
2) AEB.
3) TACC.
4) Lane following.
5) Blind spot detection(badly implemented).
6) Parallel parking (works great for me but I don't trust it).
7) Perpendicular parking(works great for me and I DO trust it).
8) Summon
9) Automated lane changing.
10) Lane departure warning.
11) Speed limit alerts.
12) Auto high beams.
And the best of them all,
13) Mario Kart's Rainbow Road
I'm sure I've missed at least 2 or 3.
Of all the stuff on that list that I don't use is parallel parking. Granted it has worked great for me and has been flawless but I decided to stop using it after reading too many fender bender stories.
What wasn't delivered? Advanced summon where the car exits your garage and comes to you on your private drive. Am I pissed that this was never done? You bet. Is it enough for a large class to demand a buyback? Not in a million years
It IS different. Tesla has delivered nearly every promised feature of AP1. *YOU* may not like the implementation of most of what was delivered but I and many others do.
This is TOTALLY different than if they NEVER deliver ANY FSD features at all.
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⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️
Village Idiot
When they are as big as Apple and have billions in the bank maybe they will make things right with the early adopters. If they don't deliver on their promise of FSD or get anywhere close.
Reeler
Decade of Pure EV Driving
1. Never let it get close enough to figure it out, but I get at least one false positive every day.
2. Never tested, but you are welcome to.
3. TACC works nice
4. Works nice on freeways
5. There is no blind spot detection. Tesla has renamed it to blind spot warning. Total fail on this feature.
6. I have tried and tried to get it to work and it only 30% of the time recognizes a spot and if it doesn't you are so far down the road it is hard to manually back up. Not reliable enough to use
7. Same, rarely detects and then you are on the wrong side of the aisle to park easily when it doesn't. Not reliable enough to use.
8. Fail.
9. Works, but since blind spot detection doesn't work the utility of this is limited.
10. Works.
11. Not map based so the mistakes over and over again. There are plenty of speed limit signs on frontage roads around here that are interpreted by the car to be the freeway speed. You would think with the billions of miles driven, Tesla would have some backend intelligence.
12. This works in the current update I received last week, but it has been broken before by several updates.
Nosken
Active Member
While I LOVED AP1. it was actually less than promised. Early on, Elon mentioned having us exit the car "on private property" and have it park itself. When done, you would summon the car, via the App, to pick you up at the front door. I am picking nits. As I stated, I loved AP1. Got My P85D in March---didn't even have Forward Collision avoidance. Finally got AP1 functionality October 2015. The wait wasn't that bad, since there were new features incrementally.
I now have an AP2/HW2 car, and the wait is killing me. I remain eagerly optimistic. I think we will know more, regarding FSD hardware, as the pilot production Model 3s roll out. Will they have the same HW2, or more?
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