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FSD: Poorest of Lane selection STILL

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DFWBrad

DFWBrad

Member
Jul 6, 2019
239
361
Frisco
#1
Backstory:
So I had been in beta since possible with my 2019 model 3, but I sold that for a 2022 model S and haven't been able to gain access for 9 months.
During that time I had a plethora of miles with FSD beta, and loved every moment. But one of my biggest complaints was the lane selection was absolute trash.

fast forward to this evening, I have finally gained access to FSD (like everyone else :D) and so far this is what I've seen.

1) Almost every feature is significantly better, round abouts still are 50/50
2) lane selection is still absolutely garbo
3) exit behavior is still terrible

#2: Why WHY on a 3 lane road does FSD get into the polar opposite lane vs the correct lane. Turning left? Let's get in far right lane. Turning right? Let's get in the furthest left lane
#3: Exit coming up in 3 exits? Let's try and exit the 2 before, nearly hitting the metal divider as we decide that is the wrong decision......twice.....

While I love beta, and am excited to get back into beta after a long wait (why should you have to wait when spending 6igs to upgrade in the first place?) I am absolutely baffled how this build is going out to everyone when it is still incapable of the most simple of lane decisions. It's not like there are other people on the road to make these decisions difficult, these are failures with absolutely 0 people on the road.

Also, why is there no report button? Least not one I can see. Going to look in the morning I guess.

Elon, please for the love of God and everyone's safety, fix the lane decision algo. We have maps for a reason, the car shouldn't get into the polar opposite lane for extremely simple right and left decisions.
 
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#3
crappy lane decisions are my favorite. Last time for me was approaching a traffic light to turn left. The car/FSDb correctly put us in the left turn lane, then because there was a line of cars, it decided to move into the right lane to skip the cars and the junction - useless. Its like every choice is made in isolation not based on what it needs next or how it got where it is. Almost like the overtake priority is set "at all costs" regardless.
 
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#4
Crappy lane selection is not really a safety issue, so they probaby aren't working on it much. And the exit is Autopilot, which hasn't been worked on in years, unless you mean when you are on the exit ramp, then that is FSD. And again, not really a safety issue, so not getting much work.

Same reason it still doesn't work in bad weather. Get it working safely in good weather, then once that is done they can work on other stuff that are annoyances.
 
#7
buyleonard said:
Crappy lane selection is not really a safety issue, so they probaby aren't working on it much. And the exit is Autopilot, which hasn't been worked on in years, unless you mean when you are on the exit ramp, then that is FSD. And again, not really a safety issue, so not getting much work.

Same reason it still doesn't work in bad weather. Get it working safely in good weather, then once that is done they can work on other stuff that are annoyances.
Click to expand...
10.69.3.1 has some tweaks to Autopilot. It's definitely acting a little differently from before. There is a curved off ramp I always take going home and Autopilot has never slowed down before. For years I have always had to disengage and take over when entering the turn. This version, for the first time, will slow down appropriately when entering the turn. So the missing other off ramps is probably due to the new tweaks.
 
#8
Twiglett said:
... approaching a traffic light to turn left. The car/FSDb correctly put us in the left turn lane, then because there was a line of cars, it decided to move into the right lane to skip the cars and the junction.
Click to expand...
yes. Passing stopped/slow vehicles should be an option just like on the freeway with TACC/LA. For the near future FSD should focus on the shortest, safest path from A to B and let the driver be responsible for taking over (if they want) when stuck in backed up traffic. But this isn't the root of the lane problem. FSB beta switches lanes back a forth in total ignorance up up coming turns *even when there are no other cars on the road.* I suspect this is just a bug and the SW engineers are right now pulling out their hair saying "It shouldn't do that!" They'll find it.
 
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#9
buyleonard said:
Perhaps I should have said they aren't working much on issues that aren't safety issues when you include the driver. Similiar to "No turn on red" signs or school zone speed linits. Dangerous if ignored, but that is the drivers job.
Click to expand...
Going to have to heavily disagree with it not being a "safety" issue.

Ie: I just got to the bank, it was a 2.5 mile drive up one main road.
fsb beta decided it wanted to be in the far left lane (3 lanes) until the last minute. This is fine, the issue arose that every single left hand turn lane that popped up fsd was turning on the left turn signal and trying to get into those lanes?! They are turn only lanes....

It would turn on the turn signal, hit the brakes, try to get into that lane, notice that wasn't right, then correct itself. If someone had been behind me there is a good chance they would of rear ended me...

Then got up to a stop light and the left lane I was in had 1 car, the middle lane had 5 cars and a car coming from behind. Fsd decided this was the "correct route" and last minute moved over to the middle lane, blocking both sideways.

I figured after nearly a year that these navigational issues would of been fixed. Everything else has made leaps and bounds since I last had beta. But not this aspect 😂

But, fsd+highwaystack was able to get me "mostly" home the other night from across town (60min drive).
 
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#10
are you SURE you are on most recent version, all updates, etc? Because there are several here who seem to indicate 100% 180 of what you are experiencing/how great it is/how close we are to Elon's target of FSD being "fully completed by 12/31/2022".

Sure your camera lenses arent simply dirty/your cameras dont need calibrating? Have you rebooted your car today? Then recalibrating the cameras afterwards?
 
Last edited:
#11
DFWBrad said:
Going to have to heavily disagree with it not being a "safety" issue.

Ie: I just got to the bank, it was a 2.5 mile drive up one main road.
fsb beta decided it wanted to be in the far left lane (3 lanes) until the last minute. This is fine, the issue arose that every single left hand turn lane that popped up fsd was turning on the left turn signal and trying to get into those lanes?! They are turn only lanes....

It would turn on the turn signal, hit the brakes, try to get into that lane, notice that wasn't right, then correct itself. If someone had been behind me there is a good chance they would of rear ended me...

Then got up to a stop light and the left lane I was in had 1 car, the middle lane had 5 cars and a car coming from behind. Fsd decided this was the "correct route" and last minute moved over to the middle lane, blocking both sideways.

I figured after nearly a year that these navigational issues would of been fixed. Everything else has made leaps and bounds since I last had beta. But not this aspect 😂

But, fsd+highwaystack was able to get me "mostly" home the other night from across town (60min drive).
Click to expand...
The planner is something that's getting more focus recently. It was originally hard coded, but changed to a neural net some months back, which then has to be tweaked with data from the fleet. It got a little better in some cases, but still struggles in others. Map data is either not being weighed or has incorrect/missing lane geometry, so the car is falling back on visual clues and "guessing" which lane it should be in, while fighting other algorithms that handle things like speed-based lane changes, and traffic patterns. A recent update indicates they are working on reading lane markings to help with lane selection, so when the car sees a left turn lane marking ahead, and knows it needs to go straight, it will deselect that lane as a possibility.

This most recent update (69.3.1) shows more of the car's thinking with regard to lane selection. It's a matter of weighing choices the car has to make to get to the correct result.

The planner (lane selection) has these subroutines running at the same time, fighting with each other:

1) Speed based lane selection. If the lane you're in is moving slowly compared to other lanes next to you, this subroutine wants to change lanes to keep you at your set speed
2) Lane congestion. If the lane you're in has more cars in it, and the lane next to you has much fewer cars, this subroutine wants to change lanes to keep you ahead of traffic. This is like when you pull up to a red light, and the lane you're in has 8 cars, and the other lane has no cars, many people switch lanes to be closer to the red light.
3) Maintain the route. If the navigation system tells the car that there is a right turn coming up, this subroutine wants to change lanes towards the right to prepare for the right turn.

Where we see issues is when these systems fight with each other and are not weighed properly. #3 says move to the right lane. #2 sees the right lane has lots of cars, but the middle/left lane is very open, we should switch to that lane! #1 sees that the cars in the right lane are moving slower than the other lanes, we should switch lanes to keep you at your speed!

#3 should be weighed the highest, but can't always be. There are many times where getting into the correct lane is not the correct solution. You need to make a right turn ahead, but there is a strip mall just before it, and cars are backed up trying to get into that mall parking lot. Do you sit in that right lane and just wait? Or do you move over to the left lane and bypass that clog, then cut over to the right after the parking lot entrance to make your right turn? That would mean putting more weight on the #2 subroutine.

I'm confident they'll get it dialed in eventually. In the meantime, if needed, I just take over and drive myself if I know there will be an issue.
 
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#12
Lane selection is still garbo. Slightly improved now that they are using a bit of guidance from the painted arrows. In specific cases, the car still moves into the complete opposite lane to the one it should be in. Always same places every time. Extremely annoying. Other than that FSD drives fine 90% of the time at this point.

I think lane selection will actually be one of the more difficult problems to solve due to a few reasons.
 
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#13
D Good said:
I think lane selection will actually be one of the more difficult problems to solve due to a few reasons.
Click to expand...
Care to elaborate? I suspect you are right since here we are and it is still an issue, but in my Elon-esque mind, this should be easy. Bad map data IMO is the only reason for the erratic lane changes I see when there are no other cars around. Why is this not auto updated? Once several cars discover that there are, in fact, two lanes here, and not just one this should automatically get recorded. No reason to keep making the same mistake over and over.
 
#14
D Good said:
Lane selection is still garbo. Slightly improved now that they are using a bit of guidance from the painted arrows. In specific cases, the car still moves into the complete opposite lane to the one it should be in. Always same places every time. Extremely annoying. Other than that FSD drives fine 90% of the time at this point.

I think lane selection will actually be one of the more difficult problems to solve due to a few reasons.
Click to expand...
Strangely, I find my car to be very inconsistent in this regard (lane selection). There's a specific spot near my house where my car will erroneously move into a turning lane about half the time, forcing me to intervene. The other half of the times, it does not do this. This same pattern has repeated at several other spots. Not sure why it's so inconsistent.
 
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#15
Dewg said:
The planner is something that's getting more focus recently. It was originally hard coded, but changed to a neural net some months back, which then has to be tweaked with data from the fleet. It got a little better in some cases, but still struggles in others. Map data is either not being weighed or has incorrect/missing lane geometry, so the car is falling back on visual clues and "guessing" which lane it should be in, while fighting other algorithms that handle things like speed-based lane changes, and traffic patterns. A recent update indicates they are working on reading lane markings to help with lane selection, so when the car sees a left turn lane marking ahead, and knows it needs to go straight, it will deselect that lane as a possibility.

This most recent update (69.3.1) shows more of the car's thinking with regard to lane selection. It's a matter of weighing choices the car has to make to get to the correct result.

The planner (lane selection) has these subroutines running at the same time, fighting with each other:

1) Speed based lane selection. If the lane you're in is moving slowly compared to other lanes next to you, this subroutine wants to change lanes to keep you at your set speed
2) Lane congestion. If the lane you're in has more cars in it, and the lane next to you has much fewer cars, this subroutine wants to change lanes to keep you ahead of traffic. This is like when you pull up to a red light, and the lane you're in has 8 cars, and the other lane has no cars, many people switch lanes to be closer to the red light.
3) Maintain the route. If the navigation system tells the car that there is a right turn coming up, this subroutine wants to change lanes towards the right to prepare for the right turn.

Where we see issues is when these systems fight with each other and are not weighed properly. #3 says move to the right lane. #2 sees the right lane has lots of cars, but the middle/left lane is very open, we should switch to that lane! #1 sees that the cars in the right lane are moving slower than the other lanes, we should switch lanes to keep you at your speed!

#3 should be weighed the highest, but can't always be. There are many times where getting into the correct lane is not the correct solution. You need to make a right turn ahead, but there is a strip mall just before it, and cars are backed up trying to get into that mall parking lot. Do you sit in that right lane and just wait? Or do you move over to the left lane and bypass that clog, then cut over to the right after the parking lot entrance to make your right turn? That would mean putting more weight on the #2 subroutine.

I'm confident they'll get it dialed in eventually. In the meantime, if needed, I just take over and drive myself if I know there will be an issue.
Click to expand...
1) My car continuously get's into the slowest lane, fast lane or right lane open? Let's get in the middle behind cars and slow down
2) ZERO cars in the fast lane and passing cars? Let's get behind people in the middle lane
3) After tonight I am convinced it is 100% guessing where to go, and has very little map awareness and let me provide examples!

This is from my drive home tonight, after driving to poker and having to turn it off because the cops would of pulled me over for drunk driving with how many lane changes it was making in such short time, that were 1000% not needed and not following any of the above 3 logic. Sorry for the blue mark outs, trying to somewhat hide my location ;P

Example 1:
Car is in the 2nd (right) left turn lane, at the last minute it tries to get over TWO lanes into the uturn lane? I had to take over not to hit the median when it maybe tries to correct itself

1.PNG

Example 2:

Car should have gotten in one of the two left lanes to make a turn, instead it stayed in the middle of 3 straight lanes, and continued straight without any intention of turning....not even a slight hesitation
2.PNG

Example 3:

Car should stay in the left lane, as the right lane ends to a turn only. It STAYS in this lane even beyond the turn portion and then will erratically move over into the left lane at the last second.
3.PNG



So while the car is most definitely "smoother" in most skill based driving scenarios, it is 10x worse than it was 9 months ago in regards to lane selection, to the point it's not useable in many cases. I can get the wrong lane, but when a turn is coming up and you just stay straight with no traffic around is very bizarre. And it's not the first time it's done it. BUT I just got back into Beta after 9 months, so I don't have comparison from a few months back.

Very surprised this is the version that went out to everyone, when 9 months ago it did this route without much issue besides the first left turn. But now it can't even get me remotely close to home.
 
#19
For me each update does get a little better. There are places on my commute where it used to screw up every time and it now handles fine. Still not there but they seem to be creeping up on it. Currently I am on 10.69.25 and over the 40 mile round trip (half freeway) I only have to take over in three places now (not counting construction currently underway).
 
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