FSD reflections after 3mo of use

TLDR:

What driving conditions have you found challenging for FSDb?

- FSDb is the best driver assist package available today, but is absolutely not ready to take unsupervised control of your vehicle.
- It would work better (and possibly more safely) with a more advanced driver monitoring system and making it hands free. High def maps might improve things to allow this degree of automation also.
- It struggles with turn lanes. This is probably better in areas with better mapping, but if its market niche is its ability to work on all types of roads, they need to do a better job with this.
- It allows closer proximity to other vehicles than I would as a human driver. I also don’t trust it in high traffic/merge situations yet, but this may partly just be me - it hasn’t really made many errors in this situation yet.

I’ve been skeptical of FSDb, and still am. That said, it has served the exact purpose for which I bought it.

I use my Tesla for commuting. It’s about 65mi each way, a mix of limited access highway (currently with heavy construction), rural open access divided highway, and city streets. This use case is why I invested in FSD. It is the only driver assist package currently available (other than possible comma 3) that can handle all driving tasks in all of these conditions. Competitor’s “hands free” driver assist features require pre-mapped limited access highways, thus none of them would work for the vast majority of my commute and would be effectively useless. Likewise, adaptive cruise control with lane keep (as I have in my other vehicle) is a far cry from the functionality of FSDb, requiring constant driver input. FSDb is technically a Level 2 assist feature, but it is so much more. And this is my biggest complaint with it.

Tesla needs to do a better job with the driver monitoring system for FSDb, so long as it’s a level 2 system. The difference between FSDb and adaptive cruise control, as far as my own experience, is that FSDb effectively locks you out of driver controls, unless a significant forced override is applied to the steering wheel. This makes the torque steering wheel sensor a pain in the a**. I’ve gotten better at applying the right amount of torque to the wheel to avoid the alerts, but in a system where my steering inputs are not translated into navigational change, I spend most of time monitoring myself to stop the nags, as opposed to actually paying full attention to what the system is doing. Personally, I think a better solution would be an advanced driver monitoring system to assure you’re paying attention, and make it hands free, lowering the steering torque required to turn the system off (ie when you place your hands on the wheel). In fact, I’ve had a number of instances where the force required to knock FSDb out resulted in a significant deviation in trajectory, usually occurring when it gets closer to a truck or other vehicle than I, as a human driver, am comfortable being, or when it misjudges speed or sharpness of a turn on city streets - both less than ideal situations to have a sudden jerking steering input.

Generally, I am very happy with the system. In fact, I see it as the best safety feature I could have. My job is shift work. I frequently drive home in the middle of the night, or the morning after a night shift. I risk falling asleep while driving all the time. It is a risk of the job. FSDb is by far the best driver assist feature for a tired driver. Though I haven’t fallen asleep at the wheel (yet), I have tested the system by squinting my eyes (so it thinks I’m asleep), and it pretty rapidly starts beeping at me. I also know that it can competently manage 95% of all driving tasks, so if I do fall sleep, it will keep on doing its thing while also monitoring me to make sure I don’t fall sleep. Definitely the best setup available for such a situation I have found. My only fear, is that if I nod off, when it beeps at me, I make a sudden steering input that results in the system being turned off and me loosing control of the car. Overall, I think the benefits far outweigh this risk.

I’m not interested in discussion of the ethics of my driving case and safety circumstances, that’s a personal decision. I am, however, fascinated by the performance of FSDb in my challenging use case. Overall, I think it does a fantastic job in difficult situations. Low light. Rural roads with absolutely no high-def mapping. The biggest errors it makes are mistaking turn lanes for new lanes of travel. There are a couple places on my drive where it does this almost every time, threatening to drive me off the road into the grassy median at 65mph. I’ve gotten more confident in the system to let it get closer to making a mistake, in fact letting it get in one of the turn lanes where I knew it extended past the intersection in a sort of merge lane. It correctly slowed, then merged back over once through the intersection, not that it should have been in that lane in the first place. At another tricky spot where the turn lane ends at the top of a rise (so it can’t see what’s ahead), it tries to take the turn lane almost every time, so I’ve learned to get out of the left lane at this location to avoid the situation. It also has the obnoxious habit of traveling in the left lane of the rural, non-limited access highway. This is not how I would drive as a human driver and I’m not sure why it is programmed for this to be the default.

Overall, FSDb is pretty good at taking all driving tasks away from the driver. It does struggle in certain situations and is absolutely not ready to take unsupervised control of your vehicle, unless you’re OK with it driving you off the road at highway speeds. A better driver monitoring system in combination with high-def maps and making it hands free would be a better solution, and get it closer to full autonomy. Here’s to hoping? I’m super excited to see what v11 and single stack brings. I like the city streets version better than the NoA version; it drives more like a human driver and has much faster responses, but also seems to be more prone to rash decisions (like getting into turn lanes inappropriately). We’ll see how it does on limited access highways…

I am curious what driving situations others have found FSDb to struggle with, or if people don’t have these issues in other areas with better mapping.

Image source: Full Self-Driving Computer Installations | Tesla Support Other Europe
Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[TjckTock]

I think the handoff could be made more smoothly. IOW, don't just release the wheel once the torque threshold is reached, but rather, gradually reduce the torque fighting you over, say 1/2 second (beep/vibrate immediately to let you know but gradually release the torque pushing back). You would have to exert more force for longer to take over but I think this is better in an emergency situation than the over-steer that currently occurs upon take-over.

 

[TjckTock]

I got FSD for the same reason as the OP. Want something watching my back when I am sleepy. Unfortunately, the erratic lane-changing makes it unusable on my commute. Besides looking like a nincompoop, it is a safety hazard. That said, I have noticed that they have improved the override. Used to be when you overrode a lane change it would immediately try again. Now it waits longer. So that is progress. I do want to say that I disagree with the OP about other driver assist features. I *LOVE* Ford Blue-cruise on my F150 Lightning. I guess I am lucky that the 9 mile stretch of freeway on my commute is mapped because it is awesome. I get into the lane I want and sip my coffee letting the truck do it's thing until time to exit. No wiggling the wheel or worrying about if the vehicle is going to do something stupid. It isn't FSD but it is awesome. Even off the freeway, I prefer the Ford lane-assist. It's behavior is much more deterministic/predictable. Tesla FSD will, no doubt, be superior one day. But right now Tesla has nothing that competes with the competition. TACC is really the only driver-assist feature they have that works well.

 

[RedY23]

I got FSD for the same reason as the OP. Want something watching my back when I am sleepy. Unfortunately, the erratic lane-changing makes it unusable on my commute. Besides looking like a nincompoop, it is a safety hazard. That said, I have noticed that they have improved the override. Used to be when you overrode a lane change it would immediately try again. Now it waits longer. So that is progress. I do want to say that I disagree with the OP about other driver assist features. I *LOVE* Ford Blue-cruise on my F150 Lightning. I guess I am lucky that the 9 mile stretch of freeway on my commute is mapped because it is awesome. I get into the lane I want and sip my coffee letting the truck do it's thing until time to exit. No wiggling the wheel or worrying about if the vehicle is going to do something stupid. It isn't FSD but it is awesome. Even off the freeway, I prefer the Ford lane-assist. It's behavior is much more deterministic/predictable. Tesla FSD will, no doubt, be superior one day. But right now Tesla has nothing that competes with the competition. TACC is really the only driver-assist feature they have that works well.

When I first bought my MYP a few months ago I though the basic AP was bad as it would constantly kick me out, stating it didint detect my hands. I didnt believe some of the forum members that said things would improve as I use it more. Having put on 3000 miles and many freeway miles…Those members were correct. I got used to keeping slight torque on the wheel and often just put my knee on wheel both work to keep the AP engaged. The only annoying thing is that it diconnects if I change lanes rather than recapturing the new lane. Oveall I think the free basic AP is great at keeping speed and lane. I wish it went faster than 85 mph on freeway and more than 5mph on regular roads…my only gripe

 

[Magellan55]

So FSD seems to have improved a bit with the latest OS 45.15. Car drove me home from a lunch meeting in another town, about 25 minutes total without disengaging or needing input. mix of in-town, redlights, traffic, left turns, right turns, right turn lanes, 4 lane highway, rural twisty 2 lane, and unmarked neighborhood streets. lane changes for faster lane were smooth and uneventful. it's starting to really feel like a human is driving, except in my unmarked neighborhood roads where it's still not confident. Or maybe more like a 15 year old that's been driving a month instead of her first time behind the wheel Steering wheel seems to nag less too. Still doesn't recognize stopped school buses though - they got to fix that. And for some reason, it now comes to a complete stop before making left turns on unmarked neighborhood streets, though pushing down on the accelerator overrides that without disengaging anything. Also, it no longer freaks out when a car comes the other way in the neighborhood - it paints a fake yellow lane marker on the road so it now can tell the other car is in the opposite "lane" and just stays in its "lane".

 

[KArnold]

it now comes to a complete stop before making left turns on unmarked neighborhood streets,

Hmmm, I've not observed that. In fact I thought 11.3.6 made the unmarked neighborhood UPL much more naturally. On v10 it really squared off that turn and more slowly.

In my example, it's a T-intersection going east-to-west across the top of the T turning left to go south on the T - no opposing road above the T. Is that the kind of turn you are referring to?

Have you seen this on different corners?

 

[Magellan55]

yes, in two locations in my neighborhood. First one is a left turn onto another street, where you can't go straight or turn right - basically it's just a road with a tight left turn but the two halves are called different names so FSD sees it as turning left from one street to the other. Full stop, then makes the turn. second is turning left into a side street where the main street continues. same thing - full stop in the middle of the street, then sharp left onto the side street. my neighborhood has no curbs, markings, or sidewalks. it's a rural setting, with just grass on either side of the road and then woods about 10 feet on either side.

 

[Tippytj2]

I’ve been on 11.3.6 for a few weeks and I agree, it seems a significant improvement and much more human-like. Still makes some funky lane choices (though less frequent, it still moves over to the opposite lane necessary for an upcoming turn. This is the most infuriating behavior I’ve found with FSD and it makes no sense), but passing is much smoother. It definitely has more difficulty with lane choice in low light.

Interestingly, I agree that the steering wheel nag has gotten better. It seems to me that the torque and time between nags has gone down and up, respectively. It also seems when its probabilistic navigation becomes less certain (ie higher traffic and/or low light), it increases the necessary torque and requires more frequent input. Not sure if this is actual, or just my perception. I would definitely describe it as an improvement. Would be even better if it allowed long stretches of no torque for high probability navigation (e.g. low density highway).

It sounds like 11.4 provides even more improvements and I look forward to trying it out.

 

[mjwojtukiewicz]

TLDR:

What driving conditions have you found challenging for FSDb?

- FSDb is the best driver assist package available today, but is absolutely not ready to take unsupervised control of your vehicle.
- It would work better (and possibly more safely) with a more advanced driver monitoring system and making it hands free. High def maps might improve things to allow this degree of automation also.
- It struggles with turn lanes. This is probably better in areas with better mapping, but if its market niche is its ability to work on all types of roads, they need to do a better job with this.
- It allows closer proximity to other vehicles than I would as a human driver. I also don’t trust it in high traffic/merge situations yet, but this may partly just be me - it hasn’t really made many errors in this situation yet.

I’ve been skeptical of FSDb, and still am. That said, it has served the exact purpose for which I bought it.

I use my Tesla for commuting. It’s about 65mi each way, a mix of limited access highway (currently with heavy construction), rural open access divided highway, and city streets. This use case is why I invested in FSD. It is the only driver assist package currently available (other than possible comma 3) that can handle all driving tasks in all of these conditions. Competitor’s “hands free” driver assist features require pre-mapped limited access highways, thus none of them would work for the vast majority of my commute and would be effectively useless. Likewise, adaptive cruise control with lane keep (as I have in my other vehicle) is a far cry from the functionality of FSDb, requiring constant driver input. FSDb is technically a Level 2 assist feature, but it is so much more. And this is my biggest complaint with it.

Tesla needs to do a better job with the driver monitoring system for FSDb, so long as it’s a level 2 system. The difference between FSDb and adaptive cruise control, as far as my own experience, is that FSDb effectively locks you out of driver controls, unless a significant forced override is applied to the steering wheel. This makes the torque steering wheel sensor a pain in the a**. I’ve gotten better at applying the right amount of torque to the wheel to avoid the alerts, but in a system where my steering inputs are not translated into navigational change, I spend most of time monitoring myself to stop the nags, as opposed to actually paying full attention to what the system is doing. Personally, I think a better solution would be an advanced driver monitoring system to assure you’re paying attention, and make it hands free, lowering the steering torque required to turn the system off (ie when you place your hands on the wheel). In fact, I’ve had a number of instances where the force required to knock FSDb out resulted in a significant deviation in trajectory, usually occurring when it gets closer to a truck or other vehicle than I, as a human driver, am comfortable being, or when it misjudges speed or sharpness of a turn on city streets - both less than ideal situations to have a sudden jerking steering input.

Generally, I am very happy with the system. In fact, I see it as the best safety feature I could have. My job is shift work. I frequently drive home in the middle of the night, or the morning after a night shift. I risk falling asleep while driving all the time. It is a risk of the job. FSDb is by far the best driver assist feature for a tired driver. Though I haven’t fallen asleep at the wheel (yet), I have tested the system by squinting my eyes (so it thinks I’m asleep), and it pretty rapidly starts beeping at me. I also know that it can competently manage 95% of all driving tasks, so if I do fall sleep, it will keep on doing its thing while also monitoring me to make sure I don’t fall sleep. Definitely the best setup available for such a situation I have found. My only fear, is that if I nod off, when it beeps at me, I make a sudden steering input that results in the system being turned off and me loosing control of the car. Overall, I think the benefits far outweigh this risk.

I’m not interested in discussion of the ethics of my driving case and safety circumstances, that’s a personal decision. I am, however, fascinated by the performance of FSDb in my challenging use case. Overall, I think it does a fantastic job in difficult situations. Low light. Rural roads with absolutely no high-def mapping. The biggest errors it makes are mistaking turn lanes for new lanes of travel. There are a couple places on my drive where it does this almost every time, threatening to drive me off the road into the grassy median at 65mph. I’ve gotten more confident in the system to let it get closer to making a mistake, in fact letting it get in one of the turn lanes where I knew it extended past the intersection in a sort of merge lane. It correctly slowed, then merged back over once through the intersection, not that it should have been in that lane in the first place. At another tricky spot where the turn lane ends at the top of a rise (so it can’t see what’s ahead), it tries to take the turn lane almost every time, so I’ve learned to get out of the left lane at this location to avoid the situation. It also has the obnoxious habit of traveling in the left lane of the rural, non-limited access highway. This is not how I would drive as a human driver and I’m not sure why it is programmed for this to be the default.

Overall, FSDb is pretty good at taking all driving tasks away from the driver. It does struggle in certain situations and is absolutely not ready to take unsupervised control of your vehicle, unless you’re OK with it driving you off the road at highway speeds. A better driver monitoring system in combination with high-def maps and making it hands free would be a better solution, and get it closer to full autonomy. Here’s to hoping? I’m super excited to see what v11 and single stack brings. I like the city streets version better than the NoA version; it drives more like a human driver and has much faster responses, but also seems to be more prone to rash decisions (like getting into turn lanes inappropriately). We’ll see how it does on limited access highways…

I am curious what driving situations others have found FSDb to struggle with, or if people don’t have these issues in other areas with better mapping.

View attachment 911961
Image source: Full Self-Driving Computer Installations | Tesla Support Other Europe
Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

FSD will only be viable when MOST cars have similar code otherwise it would have a hard time coping with an idiot pulling an idiot move. Eg. Making a right/left turn when NOT in a right or left line

 

[mjwojtukiewicz]

I’ve been on 11.3.6 for a few weeks and I agree, it seems a significant improvement and much more human-like. Still makes some funky lane choices (though less frequent, it still moves over to the opposite lane necessary for an upcoming turn. This is the most infuriating behavior I’ve found with FSD and it makes no sense), but passing is much smoother. It definitely has more difficulty with lane choice in low light.

Interestingly, I agree that the steering wheel nag has gotten better. It seems to me that the torque and time between nags has gone down and up, respectively. It also seems when its probabilistic navigation becomes less certain (ie higher traffic and/or low light), it increases the necessary torque and requires more frequent input. Not sure if this is actual, or just my perception. I would definitely describe it as an improvement. Would be even better if it allowed long stretches of no torque for high probability navigation (e.g. low density highway).

It sounds like 11.4 provides even more improvements and I look forward to trying it out.

It STILL jerks the wheel ever so slightly when making turns. Also stops forever (based upon the amount of time someone is willing to wait) at stop signs even if there is no oncoming traffic in sight

 

[gtae07]

I spend most of time monitoring myself to stop the nags, as opposed to actually paying full attention to what the system is doing. Personally, I think a better solution would be an advanced driver monitoring system to assure you’re paying attention, and make it hands free, lowering the steering torque required to turn the system off (ie when you place your hands on the wheel)

I find the same with basic autopilot--I'm spending more mental effort trying to watch for/prevent nags than I am really observing "what is the car doing". The disengage others have mentioned is also trouble--I had to take over when passing a semi that was drifting over towards me and there was a guardrail on the other side, and it was a bit hairy for a second when the AP disengaged.

Unless the price comes way down I don't see myself using any FSD. But it sure would be nice to have easier lane changes on AP, less reliance on wheel pressure, and maybe better visualization on the screen (e.g. zoom out a bit and show traffic behind you for better SA).

 

[mgs333]

After trying FSDb out for a month and letting it expire and being back on basic Autopilot for about a week...

My life is more peaceful and less dramatic, especially when the wife is in the car. It was definitely an interesting month but not always in a good way.

Driving with beta is like being with a high-strung, high-maintenance partner. Exciting and never boring but unpredictable, unreliable and ultimately stressful.