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FSD Transfer - NO - but Tesla says it's really OK

Fair point about the EAP features having some value and needing to pay for full FSD for that now.

To me personally EAP wouldn't be worth much over base AP, all I really care about is ACC/TACC which is now standard. After that I don't care much until true self-driving, where I can pay no attention at all, becomes available on the market. I think Tesla is extremely far from that still, and I think their technological approach makes it even more difficult than it has to be. (Which is very difficult regardless!)

But I recognize many find EAP helpful/worthwhile.

I also appreciate all y'all Tesla FSD beta testers, if your testing helps get us closer to true self-driving! :)
I had EAP and the navigate feature was very valuable when driving across country.

The $6k I paid, two weeks ago, up get FSD adds…speed limit sign reading.
 
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Eno Deb

Active Member
Aug 17, 2018
2,641
3,401
SF Bay Area
You know, it's us early buyers who purchased EAP who are most justifiably angry at the lack of transferability. EAP gave us the most valuable component, namely NOA, which, given some practice, works very well from onramp to offramp on freeways. By upgrading to "FSD" we truly got nothing additional. Even now, driving with "FSD" beta, it's the NOA on freeways that's the useful feature.

But the majority who bought FSD after EAP was discontinued, got NOA with auto-lanes changes etc. Maybe not a robotaxi, and the value/price is open to debate, but they shouldn't be moaning about how they got "absolutely nothing at all" for the money.
The thing is, you (and I) probably paid less for EAP + "old" FSD than people with newer cars paid (and are still paying) for "new" FSD, so I'm not sure I buy the notion that we are the bigger victims. ;-)

The reason why I think that early buyers are probably more "deserving" of a one-time transfer is that the marketing claims and order pages at the time were, let's say, less realistic than they are now (not to say dishonest). Today's buyers have a better idea what they are actually getting.
 
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Sorry to raise the dead.
Imagine getting a new phone and having to purchase all your apps again.
Imagine buying a new laptop and having to purchase all of your software again.
Imagine buying a new computer on wheels and having to purchase all of your software again.

I really hope Tesla considers keeping FSD software an account-tied asset, so previous owners can buy new cars and continue to use the software they already purchased. If I have to pay $12K+ for FSD on a Cybertruck and don't get $12K back for it on my Model 3, then I will reconsider even buying the Cybertruck as I want to continue to use the FSD software I already paid for ($5K).
 
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bradtem

Robocar consultant
Dec 18, 2018
315
430
Sunnyvale, CA
While account tied would be nice, the real thing I would want is just to be able to sell it with the car. Are the other software upgrades like the increased performance upgrade lost when you sell your car, too? Tesla likes to say how FSD will go up in value and make the car more valuable, but it seems only if you someday hire it out as a taxi.

With FSD at $12K, I wonder if somebody will set up a system to let people with FSD lease their cars to private buyers rather than sell them with some sort of indefinite term fixed-payment lease which ability to sublease (ie. resell.) You would not get as much due to the title hassle, but the world is pretty used to the idea of leased cars where the title is with somebody else.
 
Does anyone know if there was a time when Tesla was doing the FSD purchase that it would be kept with the account? When I bought my FSD I seem to recall it was, then wasn’t, the stayed with the car. Now it stays with the car but only if sold private party. It really irks me as I’m trying to purchase a new Y and Im’m going to have to either subscribe or buy it or not even consider it. My most used feature was what was included in Enhanced Auto Pilot (lane change). FSD never really worked.
 

bradtem

Robocar consultant
Dec 18, 2018
315
430
Sunnyvale, CA
Does anyone know if there was a time when Tesla was doing the FSD purchase that it would be kept with the account? When I bought my FSD I seem to recall it was, then wasn’t, the stayed with the car. Now it stays with the car but only if sold private party. It really irks me as I’m trying to purchase a new Y and Im’m going to have to either subscribe or buy it or not even consider it. My most used feature was what was included in Enhanced Auto Pilot (lane change). FSD never really worked.
Where does it say it stays with the car if sold private party?
 
Most Used cars listed on their site come with Speed boost and FSD included. I have to imagine they all didnt have FSD from previous owner. They work it into the price Obviously but I dont think you end up paying full price that way. Well maybe now because prices so so crazy with Supply and Demand for cars all sideways.

For example
I bought my 2019 M3 Used 21,000 miles from Tesla site, included FSD, Speed boost, Grey, White interior, 19 Inch rims, Dual Motor 43,800 March last year. I feel it was a steel. They put new tires on too. Literally right after I bought it, prices went through the roof. Thankful I got it when I did.

Will see what happens as prices drop when ever they do but they still offer FSD on most of their used Inventory and again I doubt all those cars came with it originally from previous owners.
 

tm1v2

Active Member
Oct 18, 2021
1,387
998
USA
@bradtem Fully purchased FSD always transfers with the car to its next owner. Always.

[ Side note: I'm not sure if monthly FSD transfers if you transfer ownership of the car mid-month. Hopefully it does, but honestly transfer of monthly FSD doesn't seem like a big deal either way, and I don't think anybody here is asking about that anyways, I'm just mentioning it for completeness. The rest of this post refers only to fully purchased FSD. ]

There is some confusion because Tesla will add or remove FSD from a car in their ownership as they see fit. Whether they own the car because it's still new (never sold to any customer yet), or because it was sold back to them (traded in) is immaterial. They own the car and they can do what they like with it. Nothing wrong with that.

Tesla WILL NOT remove fully purchased FSD from a car not in their ownership. Yes technically they could flip their FSD config switch at any time, but they won't. If somehow they do by mistake, I'm sure they'll make it right once you notify them and show the record of FSD purchase from Tesla. This holds true no matter if the car transfers ownership - purchased FSD is transferable, to my knowledge Tesla has never sold non-transferable FSD. (Yes they have listed/sold other features as non-transferable at times, e.g. free unlimited supercharging was non-transferable on later Model S, but I've not come across non-transferable FSD.)

There is some *additional* confusion because when Tesla has removed FSD from a car in their ownership, it's possible - very rare but has happened - for FSD removal in their central system to not propagate to the car until AFTER Tesla sells the car. The next owner might then see FSD enabled, and then suddenly it's disabled/gone, and that owner wrongly assumes they got swindled. That is not the case! In those cases Tesla never said the car came with FSD, and the next owner never verified that it was supposed to come with FSD, they just made a poor assumption based on seeing the car's currently enabled software features.

Now to be fair, given how Tesla changes software config options on cars in their ownership, it's also clearly wrong of them to sell a car before pushing the latest config to it. That should be a mandatory step in their process of selling any car (new or used), but apparently it isn't, or at least it wasn't when the scenario above made some headlines.

For extra extra confusion, that "next owner" might be an auction house, followed by a dealer, followed by an actual consumer all in very rapid order. The auction house probably doesn't know or care about FSD. Then the dealer assumes that because the car shows FSD enabled, that it's actually supposed to, even though neither they nor the auction house have any record from Tesla stating the car is supposed to come with FSD. (Because it's *not* supposed to have FSD anymore!) Finally the dealer advertises it with FSD, it quickly gets snapped up by a consumer, and then the consumer is upset when FSD goes away. In this case the dealer would be at fault for presenting a car as having fully purchased FSD when they had no record or promise of that from Tesla (not via the auction house and not directly either). Or if the dealer never promised that, rather the consumer just noticed it in the software menus and made an assumptions, then the consumer would be at fault.

Like with any major transaction, get the important parts in writing. If you think you're buying FSD, make sure it's in writing from the seller, so you have recourse if it turns out they don't deliver properly. Doesn't matter if the seller is an individual, a dealer, or Tesla themselves. If the seller won't promise that the car has fully purchased FSD, then assume the car doesn't truly have it and it might go away at any time when Tesla pushes a software/config update.

[ Just to be clear, I'm no fan of Tesla's "FSD," I think it looks like very poor value when purchased new from Tesla. But the FUD of Tesla removing FSD upon ownership transfer is just wrong from everything I've seen and read. Tesla only does that on cars they own, which is perfectly reasonable and within their rights. ]
 
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drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
2,901
3,745
Seattle
I think it would be a very generous move to make FSD as user-locked feature and not a vehicle-locked feature.
Actually its not generous, so much as a way of retaining customers .. as the competition grows I suspect they will re-visit this at some level, such as offering to transfer FSD to a new car for some reduced fee (thus getting repeat revenue but also retaining customers).
 
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@bradtem Fully purchased FSD always transfers with the car to its next owner. Always.

[ Side note: I'm not sure if monthly FSD transfers if you transfer ownership of the car mid-month. Hopefully it does, but honestly transfer of monthly FSD doesn't seem like a big deal either way, and I don't think anybody here is asking about that anyways, I'm just mentioning it for completeness. The rest of this post refers only to fully purchased FSD. ]

There is some confusion because Tesla will add or remove FSD from a car in their ownership as they see fit. Whether they own the car because it's still new (never sold to any customer yet), or because it was sold back to them (traded in) is immaterial. They own the car and they can do what they like with it. Nothing wrong with that.

Tesla WILL NOT remove fully purchased FSD from a car not in their ownership. Yes technically they could flip their FSD config switch at any time, but they won't. If somehow they do by mistake, I'm sure they'll make it right once you notify them and show the record of FSD purchase from Tesla. This holds true no matter if the car transfers ownership - purchased FSD is transferable, to my knowledge Tesla has never sold non-transferable FSD. (Yes they have listed/sold other features as non-transferable at times, e.g. free unlimited supercharging was non-transferable on later Model S, but I've not come across non-transferable FSD.)

There is some *additional* confusion because when Tesla has removed FSD from a car in their ownership, it's possible - very rare but has happened - for FSD removal in their central system to not propagate to the car until AFTER Tesla sells the car. The next owner might then see FSD enabled, and then suddenly it's disabled/gone, and that owner wrongly assumes they got swindled. That is not the case! In those cases Tesla never said the car came with FSD, and the next owner never verified that it was supposed to come with FSD, they just made a poor assumption based on seeing the car's currently enabled software features.

Now to be fair, given how Tesla changes software config options on cars in their ownership, it's also clearly wrong of them to sell a car before pushing the latest config to it. That should be a mandatory step in their process of selling any car (new or used), but apparently it isn't, or at least it wasn't when the scenario above made some headlines.

For extra extra confusion, that "next owner" might be an auction house, followed by a dealer, followed by an actual consumer all in very rapid order. The auction house probably doesn't know or care about FSD. Then the dealer assumes that because the car shows FSD enabled, that it's actually supposed to, even though neither they nor the auction house have any record from Tesla stating the car is supposed to come with FSD. (Because it's *not* supposed to have FSD anymore!) Finally the dealer advertises it with FSD, it quickly gets snapped up by a consumer, and then the consumer is upset when FSD goes away. In this case the dealer would be at fault for presenting a car as having fully purchased FSD when they had no record or promise of that from Tesla (not via the auction house and not directly either). Or if the dealer never promised that, rather the consumer just noticed it in the software menus and made an assumptions, then the consumer would be at fault.

Like with any major transaction, get the important parts in writing. If you think you're buying FSD, make sure it's in writing from the seller, so you have recourse if it turns out they don't deliver properly. Doesn't matter if the seller is an individual, a dealer, or Tesla themselves. If the seller won't promise that the car has fully purchased FSD, then assume the car doesn't truly have it and it might go away at any time when Tesla pushes a software/config update.

[ Just to be clear, I'm no fan of Tesla's "FSD," I think it looks like very poor value when purchased new from Tesla. But the FUD of Tesla removing FSD upon ownership transfer is just wrong from everything I've seen and read. Tesla only does that on cars they own, which is perfectly reasonable and within their rights. ]
I'm sorry, but do you have data to back up what you say? I've read a ton of people in this forum who have bought a car from a used car dealership that had operational FSD when they bought it. I have never heard that Tesla adds software to cars, when they're traded into some other dealer. How would it have FSD installed at all, unless it had been purchased with it? I believe you are incorrect in what you say. Trust me, I'd love for you to prove me wrong! I'm considering purchasing a model x from the used market once the prices come down. I'd love to get one with fsd, if it didn't cost me too much! Say, about a thousand?

Then again, what do I know? I own an AP1 car, it works fine for me. And I'm pretty much a Tesla fanboy.
 

Krash

Data Technician
Moderator
Apr 18, 2017
2,320
2,570
Intermountain US
…I have never heard that Tesla adds software to cars, when they're traded into some other dealer. How would it have FSD installed at all, unless it had been purchased with it? I believe you are incorrect in what you say…
I believe tm1v2 is correct. Reread their original statement. Tesla isn’t ADDING FSD. Tesla is flagging FSD for REMOVAL from cars in their possession, likely from trade-ins. Then the car goes to auction, then to a dealer, then to an end user who thinks they bought FSD is mad at Tesla when it disappears. If they are lucky, the dealer advertised it with FSD and they could return the car. But usually they just come here and complain.
 
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I believe tm1v2 is correct. Reread their original statement. Tesla isn’t ADDING FSD. Tesla is flagging FSD for REMOVAL from cars in their possession, likely from trade-ins. Then the car goes to auction, then to a dealer, then to an end user who thinks they bought FSD is mad at Tesla when it disappears. If they are lucky, the dealer advertised it with FSD and they could return the car. But usually they just come here and complain.

I think we are actually agreeing. I understood him to say that no one ever purchased fsd, but it was active on the cars on used car lots. Not Tesla used car lots, others. My contention, and I believe you're saying the same thing, is that the original purchaser did have FSD, but Tesla removes it once they figured out it's been sold by a third party.
 

tm1v2

Active Member
Oct 18, 2021
1,387
998
USA
I think we are actually agreeing. I understood him to say that no one ever purchased fsd, but it was active on the cars on used car lots. Not Tesla used car lots, others. My contention, and I believe you're saying the same thing, is that the original purchaser did have FSD, but Tesla removes it once they figured out it's been sold by a third party.
No, Tesla never intentionally removes FSD because of a car changing ownership (to another non-Tesla owner). Never. If that happens it's a pure mistake and I am sure they would correct it upon notification.

Tesla sometimes removes FSD on cars THEY OWN. Which can include used cars sold back to Tesla as a trade-in.

If you sell your Tesla car with fully purchased FSD to an independent dealer or other private party, Tesla WILL NOT remove FSD from it. Full stop. End of story.


Edit: It is certainly possible that in the future Tesla could sell FSD that doesn't transfer with the car. However they have not done so to date.
 
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I would be very happy if Tesla, as a customer loyalty incentive, would credit with I originally paid for FSD toward the current price of FSD.

I am a 2020 M3 FSD owner looking to trade in on a MY with 4280 batteries.

Congrats on your first post since joining in 2019! :)

And I fully agree with you on a credit for undelivered features that were paid for.
 
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No, Tesla never intentionally removes FSD because of a car changing ownership (to another non-Tesla owner). Never. If that happens it's a pure mistake and I am sure they would correct it upon notification.

Tesla sometimes removes FSD on cars THEY OWN. Which can include used cars sold back to Tesla as a trade-in.

If you sell your Tesla car with fully purchased FSD to an independent dealer or other private party, Tesla WILL NOT remove FSD from it. Full stop. End of story.


Edit: It is certainly possible that in the future Tesla could sell FSD that doesn't transfer with the car. However they have not done so to date.

So what of all the people in these forums who have said they bought a car from a used car dealer, not Tesla, that had FSD when they bought it, and had it taken away by Tesla? Are we to assume that these numerous people are all lying?

(Moderator note - There has never been a documented instance of Tesla purposefully removing FSD that has been paid for. None of the people claiming Tesla removed FSD have ever proven their FSD was already paid for. So they are either lying or more likely mistaken.)

I am not saying that if a private party sells their car to another private party Tesla removes it, I do not believe they can legally do so. But it does appear that they can legally do so if someone trades in or sells a car to another dealer. At least that's what we must believe if the various people on these forums are telling the truth.

(Moderator note - You can believe what you want. But you cannot perpetuate falsehoods here. Your claims could be substantiated by investigative reporting if they were true, but they never have been substantiated. So the obvious conclusion is they are false.

Tesla cannot legally remove FSD from dealer transferred cars and has likely never fine so.)
 
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So what of all the people in these forums who have said they bought a car from a used car dealer, not Tesla, that had FSD when they bought it, and had it taken away by Tesla? Are we to assume that these numerous people are all lying?

I am not saying that if a private party sells their car to another private party Tesla removes it, I do not believe they can legally do so. But it does appear that they can legally do so if someone trades in or sells a car to another dealer. At least that's what we must believe if the various people on these forums are telling the truth.
I recall, when selling my Chevy Bolt to Carmax, talking to the sales person about Tesla. She mentioned that their systems weren't setup properly to handle Tesla, but they were working on it, as it required special software and procedures that talk to Tesla when transferring the car.

We could guess that such a specialized system for buying/selling Tesla's, at least in Carmax's situation, is processing the transaction as if Tesla purchased the car, and removing FSD. I'm grabbing at straws trying to fit a solution to a problem...
 
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tm1v2

Active Member
Oct 18, 2021
1,387
998
USA
So what of all the people in these forums who have said they bought a car from a used car dealer, not Tesla, that had FSD when they bought it, and had it taken away by Tesla? Are we to assume that these numerous people are all lying?

I am not saying that if a private party sells their car to another private party Tesla removes it, I do not believe they can legally do so. But it does appear that they can legally do so if someone trades in or sells a car to another dealer. At least that's what we must believe if the various people on these forums are telling the truth.
I explained how that can happen. If you've seen legitimate-sounding reports here of cars losing fully purchased FSD without passing through Tesla's ownership, please link! I'd like to know about them.

The case(s) I've seen reported on car and EV news sites turned out to be the scenario I already described.
 
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Just did a quick search on this forum and saw this one.
 

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