FSD video completely fake?

[daktari]

The last 8 months have been a pain using the wipers, since the Merc sourced wiper stalk is poor solution. The 6 years before that I did not need to use the wiper stalk, the car handled it fine.

Btw in subzero weather this morning, I got an AP error, radar obscured. It was a thin film of ice I believe, from melting snow on bonnet. No cruise, no autosteer. And AP has lead to some dangerous situations. Last winter I do remember AP1 being useful also when snow on road?
Well, FSD I paid for... not looking good.

 

[Swift]

The missing rain sensing-wipers are symbolic and symptomatic on a number of levels. They are categorically indicative of Tesla making poor engineering decisions and commitments in advance of the due diligence necessary to deliver.

In addition, most all directly competing cars in this class along with many much cheaper cars have rain-sensing wipers. Tesla prematurely (and likely incorrectly) assumed they could replicate the feature just using the cameras, and eliminated the simple, inexpensive sensor used in the AP1 cars.

They put out a date of 12/31/2016 for delivery of that feature along with a number of others (freeway transition, etc) that are still outstanding 11 months later. There is no communication or updates so people are left to guess and post their frustration here.

FSD is the same situation but they didn't put a date out there other than to imply - by taking money/allowing people to lease cars with that option - that the feature would be available during the lease term. They say that it is "subject to regulatory approval" but you need to submit something to regulators for them to approve in the first place. Not sure I see that happening during the ownership cycle of my car. Wish they would at least say something, anything on these matters.

 

[NerdUno]

You don't get it. Life is not worth living if auto wipers don't work.

I might as well die of hunger, starvation and disease than turn that damn thing on when it rains.

... says the guy with auto-sensing wipers on his AP1 vehicle.

 

[banned-66611]

Tesla got rid of the rain sensor and replaced it with cameras. It doesn't work because their visual rain detection tech doesn't work yet. This is the same tech that they intend to use for FSD.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It is literally that the manual effort needed to turn the switch to make them go faster or slower is too much effort for some people.

Wrong. It is the broken promise. The goods sold lacking.

As a wiser person said, it is symbolic and symptomatic.

Of course it doesn't help that anyone driving a premium vehicle has had automatic wipers for 20+ years, but we wouldn't be having this conversation if Tesla had never even promised it but fairly announced AP2 does not have auto-wipers, period - maybe some day, but buy it with the knowledge that it does not and may not have them.

 

[aWalkingShadow]

Tesla got rid of the rain sensor and replaced it with cameras. It doesn't work because their visual rain detection tech doesn't work yet. This is the same tech that they intend to use for FSD.

Exactly. If Tesla's vision system isn't advanced enough to see the rain and activate the windshield wipers consistently, it's difficult to be optimistic about their ability to deliver on FSD.

 

[jlund]

Exactly. If Tesla's vision system isn't advanced enough to see the rain and activate the windshield wipers consistently, it's difficult to be optimistic about their ability to deliver on FSD.

Hm, i hear you but is this a fair assessment?

I don’t think we have cracked unsupervised learning, yet. You still have to define the what to detect (e.g. rain) in a NN and what the rules are to win (turn wipers until rain provides some acceptable visibility). In other words, this takes human hours of work and validation through writing software.

I don’t know about you but being able to provide a smooth experience within lanes while not hitting anything trumps priority of auto wipers. It will be essential for FSD but merely a convenience for now.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I don’t know about you but being able to provide a smooth experience within lanes while not hitting anything trumps priority of auto wipers. It will be essential for FSD but merely a convenience for now.

Why it had to be an either/or scenario in the first place is baffling.

A normal rain sensor akin to AP1 would have done the trick on AP2 easily. It even has a similar light/humidity hybrid sensor there, so it isn't like Tesla could go completely non-camera-sensorless.

 

[banned-66611]

They had to promise it or AP2 would have been worse than AP1.

They could have included a rain sensor, but they seemed to be confident in the cameras. Musk seemed to think a cross country FSD trip was likely this year.

Turned out to be harder than they expected. Maybe dedicating the computing power for a NN and the engineer resources to develop it to rain sensing, instead of fitting a €5 sensor, was a mistake.

And then we have AP2.5.

If I were to bet I'd say FSD will need new hardware. Rain sensing on current hardware has a 50% chance of ever working as reliably as the €5 sensor.

 

[jlund]

Why it had to be an either/or scenario in the first place is baffling.

A normal rain sensor akin to AP1 would have done the trick on AP2 easily. It even has a similar light/humidity hybrid sensor there, so it isn't like Tesla could go completely non-camera-sensorless.

I completely agree with this and the next comment. An over confident decision to not include a dedicated sensor. Bad call it seems.

 

[Electroman]

I completely agree with this and the next comment. An over confident decision to not include a dedicated sensor. Bad call it seems.

Another display of hubris

 

[jlund]

Another display of hubris

To be clear I said it seems to be a bad call given how long this has taken and Elon’s tweet with it being really complicated to get auto wipers right via a camera. I hope “seems” doesn’t come off as over confident or arrogant but can’t please everyone.

And to be fair, though I criticize the choice not to include a sensor here, two comments above I argue by not providing ap2 software auto-wiper support, it isn’t a direct indicator of the amount of confidence we should have in FSD.

 

[oktane]

Let's get real here folks. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Yes, the FSD video is a fraud.

No, AP2 is not quite as good as AP1 despite the false promises of it being "enhanced".

Yes, to the casual observer, AP2 seems like it kinda works well, but the behind the wheel experience is not as good as AP1. AP2 works well until it doesn't, and you risk crashing and dying.

No, summon does not work reliably enough to be trusted without being ready to immediately halt the process. DAMHIK.

No, auto windshield wipers will never work. Bonehead move by Tesla to eliminate a $10 discrete sensor and wrongly assume they could develop vision software to replace it.

No, summon will never work as promised (navigating complex driveways etc).

No, there is no magical codebase where a FSD Tesla is driving itself around autonomously while EAP features remain non-existent. FSD will likely NEVER be achieved on the AP2 hardware. AP1 parity will probably not be achieved in the near term.

 

[KyleDay]

We agree. Now let's exert respectful pressure on Tesla to be more open and realistic about what they've sold their customers.

 

[buttershrimp]

Let's get real here folks. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Yes, the FSD video is a fraud.

No, AP2 is not quite as good as AP1 despite the false promises of it being "enhanced".

Yes, to the casual observer, AP2 seems like it kinda works well, but the behind the wheel experience is not as good as AP1. AP2 works well until it doesn't, and you risk crashing and dying.

No, summon does not work reliably enough to be trusted without being ready to immediately halt the process. DAMHIK.

No, auto windshield wipers will never work. Bonehead move by Tesla to eliminate a $10 discrete sensor and wrongly assume they could develop vision software to replace it.

No, summon will never work as promised (navigating complex driveways etc).

No, there is no magical codebase where a FSD Tesla is driving itself around autonomously while EAP features remain non-existent. FSD will likely NEVER be achieved on the AP2 hardware. AP1 parity will probably not be achieved in the near term.

Well my friend, my AP2.0 is kicking ass. I have some nice AP2.0 challenge video to share from today's drive. This is my favorite to date Hope y'all like it! Warning @BigD0g, rap lyrics.

 

[tomas]

Never made any difference, engineering doesn't really work that way.

Oh I beg to differ. It ain’t done til it’s done, but a commitment creates a sense of urgency and sparks of creativity. If you have the right team.

 

[generalenthu]

Well my friend, my AP2.0 is kicking ass. I have some nice AP2.0 challenge video to share from today's drive. This is my favorite to date Hope y'all like it! Warning @BigD0g, rap lyrics.

Its time for an AP1 vs AP2 hands off challenge. Any AP1 volunteers in Austin?

In case of tie, the better rap wins.

 

[Electroman]

better rap? Now thats an oxymoron

 

[buttershrimp]

Its time for an AP1 vs AP2 hands off challenge. Any AP1 volunteers in Austin?

In case of tie, the better rap wins.

Deal, let's see AP1 take Redub turn near ladybird Lake.

 

[skitown]

Deal, let's see AP1 take Redub turn near ladybird Lake.

Dannnggg that’s a gnarly challenge. Tight and with all that oncoming traffic. I don’t have any confidence that my AP1 could hande that better. You’ve convinced me to start looking forward to getting AP2 on our Model 3!