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Full Self-Driving - feels like a long way off to me...

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As I see it, yes, FSD feels like a long way off now because all we have to judge is the current AP which is not even designed to be self-driving. So yeah, right now, it looks slow. But FSD development will move at an exponential rate. And as soon as we see big progress on AP, people will start re-evaluating FSD and predicting it will happen sooner. I predict that when V9 comes out, we will get a much better AP and people will start saying "hmm, maybe FSD is not so impossible after all" and then the AP3 chip will come out and some FSD features like stop sign recognition will come out and then people will go "hmm, this is starting to look promising, maybe FSD is only a couple of years off".

It's worth remembering the recent past too. Before 2017.42 or so, the car had a 90% chance of making an insane swerve at every intersection when lane lines disappeared. Before 2018.10.4, hills + curves result in a dramatic underestimation of how much to turn. And hitting a bump almost always led to unstable lane recognition.

Most if not all of those problems went away basically overnight with those software releases. But every day leading up to it, we could've said that Autosteer felt like a long ways away.

Unless someone here works at the company or is really privy to both their roadmap and their in-development builds, I don't think it's easy to measure how far away they are from achieving certain goals.
 
My guess is anyone that pays for FSD, even after their initial car purchase will get the upgrade for free... remember Elon promised as much... he said all Autopilot 2.0 cars have the capability of FSD and if they determined the hardware actually isn’t capable (which appears to be be case now) then it’ll be a free upgrade. My guess is that the free upgrade won’t go out to the entire fleet, but instead go to people who have already paid for FSD and pay for it in the future.

Agreed -- imagine how crazy overbooked the service centers will become when this happens!!! Insane...

Also explains in part why they jacked up the cost of FSD post-purchase from $4000 to $5000. That said, the Electrek article about this price increase reported that Tesla officials told them that they would grandfather in existing owners (pre-price increase) to the $4000 upgrade price, but the numbers have NOT changed from $5000 back down to $4000 in my account. Any succeed in getting it lowered?
 
As I see it, yes, FSD feels like a long way off now because all we have to judge is the current AP which is not even designed to be self-driving. So yeah, right now, it looks slow. But FSD development will move at an exponential rate. And as soon as we see big progress on AP, people will start re-evaluating FSD and predicting it will happen sooner. I predict that when V9 comes out, we will get a much better AP and people will start saying "hmm, maybe FSD is not so impossible after all" and then the AP3 chip will come out and some FSD features like stop sign recognition will come out and then people will go "hmm, this is starting to look promising, maybe FSD is only a couple of years off".
Really not sure why you keep saying AP (which the feature is now called EAP) is not designed for "self driving". How can you explain how EAP will take you from On-Ramp to Off-Ramp if not designed to do "self driving". Unless you still feel that EAP Software will be completely replaced with FSD Software and will just go away. I really do not expect that. Remember the "fairly extensive rewrite" which was done (2018.10.4)? We are using that New EAP Software today. So you are saying that the rewrite of 2018.10.4 is going to be thrown out and replaced with a New rewrite call FSD? Makes no sense to me.

Karpathy Tweet:
It's very rewarding to watch the early feedback on our latest Autopilot update: https://electrek.co/2018/03/16/tesla-autopilot-update-first-drive-videos/ … a result of a fairly extensive rewrite. Working hard to get more of it polished and out there!

Andrej Karpathy on Twitter
 
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Really not sure why you keep saying AP (which the feature is now called EAP) is not designed for "self driving". How can you explain how EAP will take you from On-Ramp to Off-Ramp if not designed to do "self driving". Unless you still feel that EAP Software will be completely replaced with FSD Software and will just go away. I really do not expect that. Remember the "fairly extensive rewrite" which was done (2018.10.4)? We are using that New EAP Software today. So you are saying that the rewrite of 2018.10.4 is going to be thrown out and replaced with a New rewrite call FSD? Makes no sense to me.

Karpathy Tweet:
It's very rewarding to watch the early feedback on our latest Autopilot update: https://electrek.co/2018/03/16/tesla-autopilot-update-first-drive-videos/ … a result of a fairly extensive rewrite. Working hard to get more of it polished and out there!

Andrej Karpathy on Twitter

Honestly, it might just be my "hang up". Maybe because we don't have the promised features of EAP yet, I still think of EAP as basically just Tesla's rewrite of AP1. I see Autopilot as a driver's assist since that is what it is now whereas FSD will be self-driving. The fact that Tesla make a distinction between the two and is selling EAP and FSD as separate options only reinforces my view. Again that might just be my bias that is actually not how Tesla sees it. You may be right that with the rewrite that Karpathy did for 2018.10.4 that we actually are using FSD code now for EAP and we just don't have the more advanced features yet.
 
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It never ends with these clowns, and what's worse is you all let them get away with these shenanigans.

I bought my Model S with the thought that FSD is so far off my current car won't be the one doing any FSD (and I usually keep cars for at least 10 years). As others have said and I agree with... Tesla makes a great car... if they just backed off on all the autopilot and FSD promises they'd be in better shape. I would much rather hear them say that FSD is a goal they are committed to working towards and not make any promises on timeline. It would be nice if they simply just rolled out EAP and FSD features as they develop and test them. As it stands now they are making promises and not keeping them which is unfortunately giving people a negative view of the brand and what it can deliver.
 
I bought my Model S with the thought that FSD is so far off my current car won't be the one doing any FSD (and I usually keep cars for at least 10 years). As others have said and I agree with... Tesla makes a great car... if they just backed off on all the autopilot and FSD promises they'd be in better shape. I would much rather hear them say that FSD is a goal they are committed to working towards and not make any promises on timeline. It would be nice if they simply just rolled out EAP and FSD features as they develop and test them. As it stands now they are making promises and not keeping them which is unfortunately giving people a negative view of the brand and what it can deliver.
I would agree with you if they did not charge for it. Since people have paid $5,000 for EAP and $3,000 for FSD I think they need to give status updates from time to time. Had they not charged for it then that would be different.
 
Honestly, it might just be my "hang up". Maybe because we don't have the promised features of EAP yet, I still think of EAP as basically just Tesla's rewrite of AP1. I see Autopilot as a driver's assist since that is what it is now whereas FSD will be self-driving. The fact that Tesla make a distinction between the two and is selling EAP and FSD as separate options only reinforces my view. Again that might just be my bias that is actually not how Tesla sees it. You may be right that with the rewrite that Karpathy did for 2018.10.4 that we actually are using FSD code now for EAP and we just don't have the more advanced features yet.

I think that nails the distinction between some of the opposing views on this thread... I see FSD as a further developed EAP, where features are added to what EAP has done already... things such as stopping at lights, stop signs, making turns through intersections, etc. I foresee that these FSD features will be added to the current EAP software but will remain disabled for those that haven't paid the extra money for the FSD upgrade (which at some point will also have to include the newly announced hardware upgrade as well).

You see FSD as a separate thing entirely from EAP, so to you it's unfair to judge FSD based on EAP's capabilities at the moment. If that is true then I take it your opinion is that we haven't seen any part of this FSD system at all since it's not being built on what EAP already can do, right?

I still can't imagine the systems being two completely separate tracks... what they are trying to do is so similar... they are both trying to automate the driving of a car... EAP pretty much promises (eventual) full autonomy on the highway (on-ramp to off-ramp) and it can be used on local roads with idea that it won't recognize stop signs, traffic lights, won't make turns, etc. FSD will do what EAP can do and MORE!

I even feel like the description of FSD taken directly from Tesla's website practically spells this out:
Autopilot

Full Self-Driving Capability
Build upon Enhanced Autopilot and order Full Self-Driving Capability on your Tesla. This doubles the number of active cameras from four to eight, enabling full self-driving in almost all circumstances, at what we believe will be a probability of safety at least twice as good as the average human driver. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat. For Superchargers that have automatic charge connection enabled, you will not even need to plug in your vehicle.
 
I would agree with you if they did not charge for it. Since people have paid $5,000 for EAP and $3,000 for FSD I think they need to give status updates from time to time. Had they not charged for it then that would be different.

In my opinion they shouldn't have made paying for FSD an option at all... it is essentially vaporware at the moment. Yes, we might get some FSD abilities soon from the sound of it, but they should knock the F off that acronym until the "Full" part of FSD is realized... which again, in my opinion is a long way off. When I paid for EAP I knew what it could already do and where it would end up. If EAP wasn't developed at all or couldn't do anything but TACC at the time I bought my car I may have hesitated on spending the extra money for it.

Hopefully I'm wrong and a breakthrough happens and we see FSD much sooner than I expect... I would most definitely be pleasantly surprised.
 
I think that nails the distinction between some of the opposing views on this thread... I see FSD as a further developed EAP, where features are added to what EAP has done already... things such as stopping at lights, stop signs, making turns through intersections, etc. I foresee that these FSD features will be added to the current EAP software but will remain disabled for those that haven't paid the extra money for the FSD upgrade (which at some point will also have to include the newly announced hardware upgrade as well).

You see FSD as a separate thing entirely from EAP, so to you it's unfair to judge FSD based on EAP's capabilities at the moment.

Yep, you get it. That is the difference between the two views. I will admit that I can see the other perspective too. If EAP is already FSD just without the more advanced stuff, then yeah, I can totally see how folks would judge FSD as being far away.

I might come around to your view though depending on what Tesla does. Certainly, if Tesla releases updates to EAP that incrementally add more and more features until EAP becomes full self-driving then your view will be proven correct. The V9 update may well prove you right.

It's something I have always wondered about. Will Tesla just gradually update EAP until it is FSD or will Tesla release a separate update just for FSD purchasers that unlocks FSD?

If that is true then I take it your opinion is that we haven't seen any part of this FSD system at all since it's not being built on what EAP already can do, right?

Correct. My opinion has been that we have not seen any FSD at all in EAP although I admit that may change with V9.
 
While from a functionality standpoint EAP is a subset of FSD, operating in driver assist mode - that's probably not what we have today.

The current implementation is more likely a modified version of the AP 1 software.

FSD will likely use a completely different implementation using AI technologies - with the AP processor being used both for processing of the image frames (up to 2000 frames per second with the new chip) and for processing the AI rules to determine how the software will respond to the current driving situation.

Processing of the image frames - to detect and classify objects should be relatively well understood and Tesla should be able to estimate now how much processing power will be required to do object recognition for 8 cameras and then couple that with the radar and proximity sensor data.

The unknown is how much processing power will be required for the AI engine - which is why it's possible that even with the 10X improvement with the new chip, that may still not be fast enough to get the system to meet safety goals - at least twice as safe as an average human driver.

And when Tesla gets the FSD software working well enough to operate in driver assist mode, meeting the EAP goals, then they'll replace the current EAP software with the new FSD-derived software - and that might happen in the next 12-24 months, especially since EAP is primarily intended for highway use, which is much simpler than FSD's goals of operating under any road conditions...
 
I guess Microsoft or Apple always knew 5 years in advance what computer processing power they would need to run their systems that were still in development and never had to re-evaluate or ever make a mistake? :rolleyes:

Besides, what would you prefer: that they admit their mistakes and get it right in the end or never achieve FSD at all because they refuse to admit they were wrong or stubbornly persist in doing something that the computer can't do?

And I am not letting them get away with anything but I do want them to succeed.

What Apple and Microsoft were doing was evolving existing operating systems to do known tasks. The problem with FSD is it's an ever growing problem. It looks like a moderately difficult problem from the start, but once you get into it you run into more edge conditions than a knife factory.

I've done a fair bit of real time programming. Including some of the automation of commercial aircraft (I wasn't working on the code that went into the aircraft's systems, I was working on simulation systems to test those systems).

No computer actually reacts immediately, but it can react faster than a human if designed right, which is close enough to real time in most cases. When designing a system, you need to take into account all the variables. In an aircraft system, there are a lot of variables, but there are far fewer than with cars. With aircraft you need to be concerned about colliding with other planes near airports, mechanical failures, and human error. Colliding with other aircraft is dealt with in multiple layers, the first being ground controllers and secondly a system called TCAS where planes that get too close to one another communicate with each other and decide how to avoid one another. TCAS works well, but it depends on all the aircraft involved having the system. Something that won't exist with the first generation of self driving cars.

With cars, you have the above problems and added on top the possibility of collision is there everywhere, the humans involved have much less training than pilots, and the only upside is mechanical failure is not always as severe a problem with a car. Cars can pull over to the side of the road. But added on top of those problems, there are all sorts of road hazards like debris on the road, a broken windshield blinding optical sensors, people doing mischief like dropping bags of paint from overpasses, stuff falling off the truck in front of you, snow blocking sensors, sun glare blinding sensors, road construction changing the lanes, road lines that have faded or light conditions that make mirage road lines, and the list goes on and on.

The road environment we have today is designed for humans with human perception systems and human brains. Experienced drivers tend to be better than new drivers because they have learned to instantaneously parse irrelevant things and focus on the most important things. When necessary, humans can also move the sensors if the normal location isn't working right. We also have visors and sunglasses to help keep glare from blinding sensors at critical moments. On a car, the sensors are fixed.

Back when I first learned about AP1 and how Elon was predicting full self driving, knowing what I know about developing real time systems, my first thought was "good luck". More computing power will probably help with some of the problems they are encountering, but ultimately I'm not sure the problem can be cracked without changes to the transportation infrastructure.

As I see it, yes, FSD feels like a long way off now because all we have to judge is the current AP which is not even designed to be self-driving. So yeah, right now, it looks slow. But FSD development will move at an exponential rate. And as soon as we see big progress on AP, people will start re-evaluating FSD and predicting it will happen sooner. I predict that when V9 comes out, we will get a much better AP and people will start saying "hmm, maybe FSD is not so impossible after all" and then the AP3 chip will come out and some FSD features like stop sign recognition will come out and then people will go "hmm, this is starting to look promising, maybe FSD is only a couple of years off".

I'm not sure of that. We'll see.
 
While from a functionality standpoint EAP is a subset of FSD, operating in driver assist mode - that's probably not what we have today.

The current implementation is more likely a modified version of the AP 1 software.

FSD will likely use a completely different implementation using AI technologies

I guess time will tell which of us is correct (FSD builds on EAP, or FSD is something completely different)... I'm guessing the upcoming software update that will enable some FSD features might help tell the tale.
 
With cars, you have the above problems and added on top the possibility of collision is there everywhere, the humans involved have much less training than pilots, and the only upside is mechanical failure is not always as severe a problem with a car. Cars can pull over to the side of the road. But added on top of those problems, there are all sorts of road hazards like debris on the road, a broken windshield blinding optical sensors, people doing mischief like dropping bags of paint from overpasses, stuff falling off the truck in front of you, snow blocking sensors, sun glare blinding sensors, road construction changing the lanes, road lines that have faded or light conditions that make mirage road lines, and the list goes on and on.

Case in point a heavy rain a few days ago crippled EAP because it could no longer see the lines on the road. I myself could barely see them and all the cars on the road basically just had to drive carefully (slower than the speed limit) and estimate where the lanes were supposed to be. Things like that make me think we'll never have vehicles that completely eliminate all human controls... say you drive through a puddle and mud blocks a camera or two... now what happens? If the car is blinded in one or more cameras will it now no longer drive?
 
AP2 is still thrashing into other lanes in city intersections, how the missed the mark on just following the normal / current trajectory is beyond me, why would you all of a sudden swerve. 2018.26. Somehow AP1 was able to get this right years ago. It feels like it's regressed a little (AP2)

Hopefully firmware 9 has some kind of major code rewrite only then do I see FSD on the horizon.

Ain't that the truth. To this day, AP1 > AP2. Look no further than very broken speed limit data (whereas AP1 read and reacted to the signs), which puts you into elevated risk scenarios when either incorrect high or incorrect low. Those who call this a "minor problem" are on crack. The phantom braking is worse with .26.2 than with previous versions - almost got rear-ended today due to such an episode with completely clear lanes ahead.

That said, the new SoC should help immensely and recent word is that we'll have that retrofit by the end of next year which is actually ahead of schedule. Now, how they're going to get existing cars to work with 10cm GPS is a bit of a mystery yet, and I believe that's needed for traffic signal reaction. Stop signs they may handle differently if limited to the rightmost lane.

These sillinesses about auto lane changes and auto exiting while following a route are just parlor tricks - see MCU web browser and the current 40' straight line only summon feature for examples of said parlor tricks, er, incremental progress. Granted, summon has its uses even in the current very limited form.

While more robust FSD may well take 5 years or more, if Tesla can deliver just the 2014-announced stop sign reaction (see staged 2016 video with Mobileye tech), in my mind that is a significant FSD win. Never mind that it will be 5 years late. The more cars there are out there that no longer run stop signs will be a Good Thing for everybody. Hopefully we get that in 2019/early 2020 and it won't take the next refresh to deliver it. Very curious about the board/SoC retrofit since evidently that comes first.
 
I'm not getting where people say EAP is mainly for Highways???
I've been using it on all sorts of Regular Roads, I of course have to take over if there is no lead car when coming up to a Light, etc...

I have seen some extra slow downs & braking problems, but that is probably exercising on the side of caution, but I've yet to see that sudden swerve people keep referring to...

Case in point a heavy rain a few days ago crippled EAP because it could no longer see the lines on the road. I myself could barely see them and all the cars on the road basically just had to drive carefully (slower than the speed limit) and estimate where the lanes were supposed to be. Things like that make me think we'll never have vehicles that completely eliminate all human controls... say you drive through a puddle and mud blocks a camera or two... now what happens? If the car is blinded in one or more cameras will it now no longer drive?

I just had the opposite experience. This again was on Highway and non-highway trip at night. I was having a tough time seeing the road and EAP took me most the way home aside from me taking over for a couple lights cause I had no lead car. I was quite surprised cause I was expecting it to not do as well as it did.

I'm thinking that the FSD update could possibly be a big jump because the FSD option adds a bunch of sensors and takes the Cameras from 4 to 8. The EAP though only utilizing 4 cameras max could be collecting data from the extra sensors that new code has been written to act upon. Perhaps even in the "Shadow Mode" where they are collecting data from people driving on their own. As many have said time will tell & we'll see what 9.0 brings us...