Fully optioned Model 3 price in USD?

[Red Sage]

I think the last Cadillac I sat in had red tuck and roll "velvet" upholstery. That's not the route I'm hoping Tesla will emulate. Sit in a BMW 3 series, or a Mercedes C class, or an Audi A3. They have well executed, clean and unornamented interiors that look well designed, using high quality materials. The seats are supportive and wrap you well. Feel the finishes and they seem solid, not cheesy. No wiggle, no flex, no rattle. The cabin rewards the senses. Not like a 7 series, or an S Class. But they look and feel "right" in a way that early Model S and X's didn't. The new S's are a lot better in this respect, and my guess is this reflects TMC getting better at building cars.
Robin

I say again... To my eye, AUDI, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Porsche interiors were entirely Spartan for a very long time. Those cars were expensive, sure... But not particularly 'luxurious' at all. They just happened to use leather where Volkswagen would use vinyl, and wood where Volkswagen would use plastic. When competitors from Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus arrived on the market, that is the point where the Germans began to truly 'Up Their Game' with car interiors. Sure, it was 25+ years ago, so a lot of people have convinced themselves that it has 'always been this way'... But, that isn't the case at all. It used to be that a top-of-the-line S-Class was no more than a pale imitation of Rolls-Royce. Now they are instead a blatant copy of Bentley.

 

[Cloxxki]

Model S today shows a 90D for $50,000 less than a P100D otherwise identically equipped. Any way we look at taht is a fantastic premium for "the latest and greatest".

That's sick. All for bragging rights and a bigger party trick.
You get improved acceleration, and extra battery capacity to offset the less efficient bigger rear motor. And barely any faster charging in kph, I presume. For $50K... The price of a nicely specd Model 3XXD' with supercharging and AP.

The VERY top level (let's assume associated with the Ludicrous underline), people wil overspend on. Tesla has the proof of that on the roads today. The last few cells extra people are happy to pay a large multiple for. 10% more cells for the price of the first 50%.
With soon a million Model 3's on the road (still withing this decade), all the more bragging rights for having the latest greatest. So many people to one-up on a daily basis. People with ego issues will be all over it. Even at $90K. Because Tesla drivers are the people you'll want to impress. They are innovators, tech savvy, kind to Mother Earth, etc.
Really Model S and X should be where the bragging rights are. Better seats, smoother suspension, lots of space (Models S gets less and less space currently), bio filter, 22" wheels (why not spinners to save air drag?), actually good paint, wood panels, carbon fibre, etc. And then top specs such as 3XXXD could still be had at fairr prices and modest margin levels. S&X may also evolve to robot-built car to make more profits, or become the "hand built" premium end of the company.

Imagine S and X prices get reduced by $20K or so to reflect the price drop in Tesla made cells. rough on those who lose resale value, but they knew this was coming.
Tesla could look for 10,000 customers to take delivery of a mass produced "limited edition" carbon tube and body Model S that would be vastly lighter, more estate than hatchback, and keep the price around the old P120DL. That would sell just fine to rich people needing their bragging rights when cheap 3P100DL gets all the attention. And raise the performance level of the brand as a whole.

 

[ummgood]

Here the thing is... People have continually pointed to the BMW M3 as the benchmark for Performance and Pricing. They have stated multiple times that there is 'no way' Tesla Motors will offer that level of Performance for LESS money than BMW. My argument has always been that Tesla absolutely WILL sell the maximum Performance version of the Model ☰ for substantially less money than BMW will continue to ask for the M3. The top Model ☰ will be a bargain compared to an M3 the same way a Model S P90D or P100D is a bargain compared to a Porsche Panamera Turbo S or Alpina B7. The Model ☰ will have no trouble whatsoever beating the entire BMW 3-Series -- including the M3 -- in Performance and Sales.

I think you and I are agreeing on most of these points. I think the only place we don't agree is I am still of the stance that some of the cost of the BMW M3 is due to the extra body work. Yes the car looks roughly the same and yes the body panels can bolt up to the car in the same places BUT I still think there is extra cost of manufacturing with these components. I also think that on the M3 and the Z06 etc... that those changes are due to performance reasons. It isn't just acceleration it is extra skid pad performance etc... Does the M3 need this with the low center of gravity I don't know. These cars are dialed in on the track and they tweak the suspension, body work, mirrors, you name it to get the most performance out of the car as possible. That costs money. I don't see Tesla doing that performance tweaking work and replacing panels, suspension etc... for the top spec ludicrous car. I think they'll target the sport model of the 3 series. That is where I was going with my post. I am not clear all the time.

I completely agree with you the car will be the best in its class for the price and I also agree it will be cheaper than an M3. Will it be as good in the corners as a M3, who knows... Not sure if Tesla cares about that right now. That is why I tried to use the logic of the Model 3 vs the S4 or a 340i M Sport instead of the M3. The cost I feel will be in that ball park for a PXXD. If it is 100k with ludicrous like some are saying here I really think it doesn't give the performance difference like you point out of a Panamera vs a Model S.

 

[jbcarioca]

That's sick. All for bragging rights and a bigger party trick...
.

Just because one person chooses a Nissan Leaf and another a Tesla P100D makes neither one 'sick'. People differ in many respects, independent of financial status and dependent on it also. Some people pay millions for a small apartment inNew York County while others think that idiotic and prefer $100,000 for a nice house in Hattiesburg, MS. We all benefit when Tesla, and other builders make products that appeal to different tastes. We might benefit by seeing the merits in other peoples choices. BTW, a good many people remove badging on their cars to avoid advertising too blatantly what they have, not that removing the badging really helps much. Another big advantage of having people around who want the absolute top end is that they subsidise everyone else. So, try to understand, please. The P100D buyers are not all with "ego issues" nor are they all out to impress anyone. Some are, but don't you figure Warren Buffet driving an old Ford Pickup just might have a certain cachet? Another multi-billionaire I know of (control Anheuser-Busch, Heinz, Burger King and on and on) flies commercial economy class. Does he not do that to make a statement? All humans have foibles. They do little harm, mostly.

I apologize if you think I'm preaching. I am not trying to impress anybody even though I dearly love my P85D (no underline on my actual badge) and I'll end out getting a P100D probably. Nobody who knows me thinks I am at all with "ego issues". I perfectly well know that if I were I'd probably refuse to admit it, so there is that...

 

[Red Sage]

Imagine S and X prices get reduced by $20K or so to reflect the price drop in Tesla made cells. rough on those who lose resale value, but they knew this was coming.

I would imagine that as being a huge mistake. The Model S already outsells and outperforms higher priced competition by a wide margin. There is absolutely no reason to lower its price point. The Model X will already outperforms others and before too long will outsell them as well. It is not an oversight that Tesla Motors has no direct competitor to AUDI A6, BMW 5-Series, or Mercedes-Benz E-Class. Just as it is not an oversight to have no direct competitor to the Ford Fiesta, Hyundai Accent, or Nissan Versa.

 

[Red Sage]

I completely agree with you the car will be the best in its class for the price and I also agree it will be cheaper than an M3. Will it be as good in the corners as a M3, who knows... Not sure if Tesla cares about that right now. That is why I tried to use the logic of the Model 3 vs the S4 or a 340i M Sport instead of the M3. The cost I feel will be in that ball park for a PXXD. If it is 100k with ludicrous like some are saying here I really think it doesn't give the performance difference like you point out of a Panamera vs a Model S.

The Model ☰ Performance edition will likely cost about the same as the AUDI S4. I agree on that point. The difference is that where the AUDI S4 cannot hope to compete with a BMW M3, the Tesla Model ☰ Performance will kick its ass royally. That is where the two of us fundamentally disagree.

As for the 'handling' of the M3... BMW has been repeatedly beaten, time and again, in head-to-head comparisons with a lot of different cars from a variety of manufacturers since 2012. They are finally going to have a new platform for the 3-Series that incorporates more aluminum and their vaunted process for using Carbon Fibre Reinforced Plastic to reduce weight -- but it still won't be enough. As tossable, and predictable, and awesome as their cars have been for years and years, it doesn't change the fact that others are doing the same things BETTER now.

I do not like the very concept of a 'sports sedan' -- I find it personally offensive and utterly outrageous. I very much look forward to the whole concept being entirely redefined by the Tesla Model ☰. The supposed 'track first' mentality of BMW, Porsche, and Ferrari fans has always gotten on my nerves. Because what really matters is what the car can do in the real world, on public streets, at pseudo legal speeds, in an actual street legal format. I have no doubt whatsoever that the Model ☰ will be the first of many fully electric vehicles that forever banishes the bragging rights of ICE vehicles both on the street and at the track.

Go back four years and note how full sized European Sports Sedans were perfectly content to have between 400 HP and 450 HP -- until the Model S P85 arrived and kicked all their butts. A couple of years passed and they had largely bumped their horsepower ratings to 500 to 550 HP -- and then the Model S P85D arrived to stomp another mud hole in their buttocks. For good measure, the Model S P90D came along only months later. Just when they think they have everything in hand, and believe they can fall back on tried and true trite terms and phrases like 'tradition', 'heritage', 'pride', and 'rewards the senses'...? The Model S P100D comes along to kick them firmly in the seat of the pants -- AGAIN. And this progression of continual ass-whippin' isn't going to end -- EVER -- as long as they stick with ICE.

I fully expect the exact same thing will happen from 2017 and forward with the Model ☰. Companies that try to use more horsepower in an ICE to bump up their Performance numbers will also see their fuel economy ratings going down, just as their sales go further down the drain. Some will claim that the lower sales are a 'good thing' because it makes their cars 'more exclusive' and not something that 'everybody drives' -- like the Model ☰ will be. They will raise their prices to further solidify their exclusivity. And maybe, if they are lucky, some of them will see the error of their ways before their total sales drop to somewhere between Rolls-Royce and Maserati in the US. Meanwhile, the Model ☰ will be getting better and better, on something like a nine month cycle or less -- and always at a better price point than Acura, Alfa Romeo, AUDI, BMW, Cadillac, Infiniti, Jaguar, Lexus, or Mercedes-Benz can hope to match.

 

[N5329K]

The Model ☰ Performance edition will likely cost about the same as the AUDI S4. I agree on that point. The difference is that where the AUDI S4 cannot hope to compete with a BMW M3, the Tesla Model ☰ Performance will kick its ass royally. That is where the two of us fundamentally disagree.

As for the 'handling' of the M3... BMW has been repeatedly beaten, time and again, in head-to-head comparisons with a lot of different cars from a variety of manufacturers since 2012. They are finally going to have a new platform for the 3-Series that incorporates more aluminum and their vaunted process for using Carbon Fibre Reinforced Plastic to reduce weight -- but it still won't be enough. As tossable, and predictable, and awesome as their cars have been for years and years, it doesn't change the fact that others are doing the same things BETTER now.

I do not like the very concept of a 'sports sedan' -- I find it personally offensive and utterly outrageous. I very much look forward to the whole concept being entirely redefined by the Tesla Model ☰. The supposed 'track first' mentality of BMW, Porsche, and Ferrari fans has always gotten on my nerves. Because what really matters is what the car can do in the real world, on public streets, at pseudo legal speeds, in an actual street legal format. I have no doubt whatsoever that the Model ☰ will be the first of many fully electric vehicles that forever banishes the bragging rights of ICE vehicles both on the street and at the track.

Go back four years and note how full sized European Sports Sedans were perfectly content to have between 400 HP and 450 HP -- until the Model S P85 arrived and kicked all their butts. A couple of years passed and they had largely bumped their horsepower ratings to 500 to 550 HP -- and then the Model S P85D arrived to stomp another mud hole in their buttocks. For good measure, the Model S P90D came along only months later. Just when they think they have everything in hand, and believe they can fall back on tried and true trite terms and phrases like 'tradition', 'heritage', 'pride', and 'rewards the senses'...? The Model S P100D comes along to kick them firmly in the seat of the pants -- AGAIN. And this progression of continual ass-whippin' isn't going to end -- EVER -- as long as they stick with ICE.

I fully expect the exact same thing will happen from 2017 and forward with the Model ☰. Companies that try to use more horsepower in an ICE to bump up their Performance numbers will also see their fuel economy ratings going down, just as their sales go further down the drain. Some will claim that the lower sales are a 'good thing' because it makes their cars 'more exclusive' and not something that 'everybody drives' -- like the Model ☰ will be. They will raise their prices to further solidify their exclusivity. And maybe, if they are lucky, some of them will see the error of their ways before their total sales drop to somewhere between Rolls-Royce and Maserati in the US. Meanwhile, the Model ☰ will be getting better and better, on something like a nine month cycle or less -- and always at a better price point than Acura, Alfa Romeo, AUDI, BMW, Cadillac, Infiniti, Jaguar, Lexus, or Mercedes-Benz can hope to match.

Though I'm perfectly OK with the idea of a well-made four-door sedan that's spirited and fun to drive (as opposed to glitzy, lethargic and numb), your scenario would be nice indeed.
Fingers crossed,
Robin

 

[Cloxxki]

Just because one person chooses a Nissan Leaf and another a Tesla P100D makes neither one 'sick'.

I'm not sure my repsonse and what I was responding to could possibly be taken any further out of context Kind of takes away from the point you're trying to make which may actually have some merit.

 

[Cloxxki]

I would imagine that as being a huge mistake. The Model S already outsells and outperforms higher priced competition by a wide margin. There is absolutely no reason to lower its price point. The Model X will already outperforms others and before too long will outsell them as well. It is not an oversight that Tesla Motors has no direct competitor to AUDI A6, BMW 5-Series, or Mercedes-Benz E-Class. Just as it is not an oversight to have no direct competitor to the Ford Fiesta, Hyundai Accent, or Nissan Versa.

What exactly is this performance parameter? The dreaded 0-60 and 1/4 again? Then, yes. But those are not the daily use for most owners, let alone the competition it's being compared to. I think the German cars listed are Autobahn cars more than anything. That's what they're designed and built to do. Not to try and compete with Tesla's ludicrous party trick.

 

[Cloxxki]

If they actually cared, those powerful gas guzzlers could be much more fuel efficient. Mercedes AMG Formula 1 cars have reached 50% efficiency. Generators on the turbos, exhaust heat and rear axle. Not even the front axle, it being F1. And amount of energy to be recycled is acctually limited by regulations.

More back on topic, it's fascinating that we honestly don't know whether the car we can prettty much agree upon for specs, is estimated between $65K and $100K. And actually both seem very easily argued. If they can make a 55-60kWh car for $35 and make profit, they can surely make a P100DL for less than double. Even throwing in unlimited SC (a few K), AP (just software), etc.
If we are to take Tesla's expectation seriously that the average Model 3 will have just $7K in option, perhaps the top level cars will be either extremely limited edition (only for S/X owners?), or surprisingly cheap...

 

[Red Sage]

What exactly is this performance parameter? The dreaded 0-60 and 1/4 again? Then, yes. But those are not the daily use for most owners, let alone the competition it's being compared to. I think the German cars listed are Autobahn cars more than anything. That's what they're designed and built to do. Not to try and compete with Tesla's ludicrous party trick.

All of the above, and more. The term 'Tesla Generation III' means something. Whatever Real World parameter you would like to choose, a Model 3 P100D is going to WIN hands down and by a wide margin. From skid pad to moose test, from 1/4 mile trap to top speed, from NHTSA crash testing to EPA Range. And when someone does go 'to the track' look for every series to be filled with Tesla products whenever allowed. You 'just don't see', but I am desperately trying to show you anyway. BMW has never actually been as good as claimed. It is like PC Gamers claiming that 'nothing beats keyboard and mouse'. Or fans of manual shifters not accepting the fact that automatics are now better -- even when you point out the sequential automatics that appear in race cars. No. The reality is they were simply making the best out of a poor option. ICE at its best pales in comparison to EV without restriction. There will be no remaining refuge where ICE can claim absolute dominance within five years. Period.

 

[Cloxxki]

I'd love for Tesla's budget car (being darn close to identical the top spec) to be a contender at a skid pad, cornering G's, and lap time around Laguna Seca, Nurburgring, and the like. I'm just not holding my breath. How much lighter is it going to be now really compared to Model S? Slightly narrrower, slightly shorter. Not a whole lot of savings. Especially not if they're going to break the testing machines and safety sheets again.
Michelin has been pressed to come up with really fast rolling tires. This tends to go at the cost of traction and grip. Better hope the 19" Model S wheels fit.
How good a cooling system can a $35K come with? It may need only 80% of the power to get the same job done, but Model S arguably doesn't get the job done beyond a single 1/4. The same complaints will apply unless is going to be done vastly differently. Rimac levels of cooling in a car 1/30th the price. With rear seats, a boot and a frunk. 3PXXD will likely be pushing 2000kg. Simpler dampers than the S. Perhaps no ride height adjustment at all.

I really would love for the Model 3 will somehow beat the Nurburgring hot hatch record, but I can't see it happening. It's a budget long range car that's as much to Tesla standards as they can get it witthin budget and desired (high) margins.

 

[Red Sage]

How good a cooling system can a $35K come with?

[FLOCK]. Dude. Why do people keep bringing up the cooling system? An ICE vehicle needs to be <em>'cooled'</em> to between 200 degrees Fahrenheit and 500 degrees Fahrenheit. Exactly ZERO of them will operate in the 35 degrees Fahrenheit to 95 degrees Fahrenheit range that is necessary to properly protect a Lithium-ion battery pack. In other words, no ICE vehicle will <em>'turn over'</em> its engine without the internal temperature greatly exceeding ambient room temperature. To put it yet another way, if the temperature inside a BMW M3 engine is equal to or less than 130 degrees Fahrenheit, it will complete NO laps at Nurburgring whatsoever, without being towed or pushed. This tells me that the cooling system for an electric vehicle is actually SUPERIOR to that for an ICE. Damn.

 

[Cloxxki]

[FLOCK]. Dude. Why do people keep bringing up the cooling system? An ICE vehicle needs to be <em>'cooled'</em> to between 200 degrees Fahrenheit and 500 degrees Fahrenheit. Exactly ZERO of them will operate in the 35 degrees Fahrenheit to 95 degrees Fahrenheit range that is necessary to properly protect a Lithium-ion battery pack. In other words, no ICE vehicle will <em>'turn over'</em> its engine without the internal temperature greatly exceeding ambient room temperature. To put it yet another way, if the temperature inside a BMW M3 engine is equal to or less than 130 degrees Fahrenheit, it will complete NO laps at Nurburgring whatsoever, without being towed or pushed. This tells me that the cooling system for an electric vehicle is actually SUPERIOR to that for an ICE. Damn.

So what you're saying is that EV's are extremely sensitive to temperature fluctuations and therefor need a very sophisticated and powerful heat management system to be able to perform just as well right now compared to 20 seconds ago when all was fine and dandy?
Your battery may be just fine, but you need a huge motor operating at a fraction of its ratedoutput to not get to deal with vastly diminished returns or failure? Seems ICE's have an edge there.

I saw a video recently where Porsche 918 just didn't operate due to it being hot weather. Its on-board ICE was fine, the hybrid bits were freaking out.

 

[Red Sage]

So what you're saying is that EV's are extremely sensitive to temperature fluctuations and therefor need a very sophisticated and powerful heat management system to be able to perform just as well right now compared to 20 seconds ago when all was fine and dandy?
Your battery may be just fine, but you need a huge motor operating at a fraction of its ratedoutput to not get to deal with vastly diminished returns or failure? Seems ICE's have an edge there.

I saw a video recently where Porsche 918 just didn't operate due to it being hot weather. Its on-board ICE was fine, the hybrid bits were freaking out.

What ICE vehicles have is the advantage of not being expected to actually be efficient. They use up the majority of their energy creating light, sound, vibration, and heat. The advantage of a battery electric vehicle is that you expend far less energy overall to achieve similar Performance. If a battery electric vehicle could operate with a 300 degree Fahrenheit range of optimum capability there would be no question whatsoever as to their durability. But to do that, the overall efficiency of electric vehicle systems would have to be reduced to that of an ICE. That is not so good a trade-off in my opinion. Better to engineer a battery electric vehicle system that produces even less heat than they already do, in order to preserve as much energy as possible for use in motion.

 

[3s-a-charm]

I expect it to be in the same range as a fully optioned M3 or C63AMG, so around 90.

That was my thoughts. Same pricing as a BMW 3-Series.

 

[Sharkbait]

Not too long ago, I suggested the M3 would be $74 - $75K. That post earned me a couple "dislikes" - LOL. Now more than 50% of this poll say it will be $75K or higher, "nice configured" as I said or loaded? We'll see. Meanwhile, I'm still keeping my M3 reservation and will be picking up my new Model S next Friday in Buena Park. Tesla is sending me an Uber ride down to their facility, so no worries about trying to arrange to bring back two cars. The Model S will make the wait for the M3 a whole lot more bearable....

 

[Cloxxki]

What ICE vehicles have is the advantage of not being expected to actually be efficient. They use up the majority of their energy creating light, sound, vibration, and heat. The advantage of a battery electric vehicle is that you expend far less energy overall to achieve similar Performance. If a battery electric vehicle could operate with a 300 degree Fahrenheit range of optimum capability there would be no question whatsoever as to their durability. But to do that, the overall efficiency of electric vehicle systems would have to be reduced to that of an ICE. That is not so good a trade-off in my opinion. Better to engineer a battery electric vehicle system that produces even less heat than they already do, in order to preserve as much energy as possible for use in motion.

So, efficient only within a very tight temperture window. When hotter, the power output just isn't there, or something breaks.
To actually manage a 500kW output over 2 motors, they'd need to be hugely larger so they operate at a much lower end of their power range. You end up with not only the heavy battery, but motors that would make a big block ICE jealous.
What would it weigh extra to make a Model S bigger motors to sustain the power it now makes off the line? I've seen a P90DL dip below 200kW on a Nurburgring lap. That's roughly 40% of original output.
Loss of efficiency due to higher temps would be a blessing if in stead of 200kW, it would be, say, 400kW. And I suppose that's possible, with a really heavy duty cooling system. Heavy,

It would be really good for BEV's if a car on actual sale under $100K were equipped with cooling that doesn't take up all luggage space and goes a good way to maintaining peak output power during a long sustained getaway effort.
500kW off the line is just a party trick if all ends within sights of the starter.

 

[Bennny]

Meanwhile, I'm still keeping my M3 reservation and will be picking up my new Model S next Friday in Buena Park. Tesla is sending me an Uber ride down to their facility, so no worries about trying to arrange to bring back two cars

You lucky S.O.B!

 

[Red Sage]

500kW off the line is just a party trick if all ends within sights of the starter.

Remember when I wrote that I would not place you on my [IGNORE] list...? Statements like this make it very hard to keep that promise. The entire line of BMW's so-called ICE powered 'sports sedans' is going to get its butt handed to it by electric cars going forward. Just wait and see. And the point is that the party is just beginning.