Further discussion and analysis on why the yoke is not good

[father_of_6]

OK. I'll declare a bias.
It's a bias against change that's made in order to be different, but which presents nothing that's better and several things which are significantly worse. Especially when you're not talking about an iPhone or a handbag, but a lethal machine.

I share this same bias, strongly. Far too many software companies push changes just for the sake of change, which is disruptive to users who have invested time and energy into learning the product.

Furthermore, many of the changes end up being detrimental to the user experience. I'm still waiting for a sound explanation of why Android replaced my bottom navigation with a "take screenshot" button when bottom swiping. Something I used 100 times a day was replaced with something I never use, with no option to revert.

 

[Big Toys]

For the record-I classify ‘change’ as ‘potential progress.’ Per my profesional experience and observation.

Ok, a yoke is a "potential progress"...to what? No steering wheel? Why bother to even have one if the goal is none at all, and you won't be steering anyway? Why the incremental loss? What is there to adapt *to*? Per *my* professional experience and observation, we see and debate this all the time. There are lots of people in my field, mostly the academics, who are that eager to discard 50+ years of medical experience just to write the paper that later reports that that new treatment caused 30% toxicity. Try that in a community setting. But that's the beauty of academic medicine--you can damage people in the name of science and still get about 10 publications out of it.

In your defense, a guy like you whose job it seems is to "design/engineer", a "publish or perish" mindset is required. I get that. It's your job. But for us "consumers" who are a bit more sophisticated than neurotic white-phone holders who can't function without the one they are told they must have, what seems like a great idea and "progress" sometimes is just not that at all, no matter how many times it was championed during the meetings. Surely you have seen this in your field, as it is not uncommon. There are engineering/design graveyards chock full of "progress" and many engineering man-years wasted. Hell, something as simple as menu structure on an automotive infotainment screen seems to elude the best and brightest designers in the field. While I'm sure anyone could "get used to" a yoke and convince themselves it is good for them, I would ask, "why"? Hey, if it comes on a $150K car as the only option, I'd sure as hell try to get used to it. Maybe even like it (like the old BMW menu system...) Maybe even look down my nose at "circle turners".

 

[Wol747]

>>Hell, something as simple as menu structure on an automotive infotainment screen seems to elude the best and brightest designers in the field.<<

Exactly.
The Model S screen display should be an example to be shown in programmer schools as to how NOT to do it.
The car settings are pretty good, but the "infotainment" - ghastly word - is an absolute mess. The various apps have different ways of behaving and being used and often these ways are changed by updates so that they are unusable.
Example: my car decided that it would no longer show YouTube, Netflix etc apps. I tried all sorts of things - no answer. No way to talk to Tesla so I put in for a 300 mile round trip to the nearest SC, hoping that they would get in contact so that I didn't have to do it. The SC called today and "fixed" it - after one of the updates they have changed to way to get to these: it's now by going via the "Toybox" icon! Never having wanted to play with toys in my car I have never touched it so there's no way of knowing it now takes you to YouTube.
This - and many other things - make me realise that despite the constant bragging about being "software oriented" Tesla hasn't progressed that much in user- friendly programming in some ways since DOS!
Back to the joke......

 

[ForDesign]

Ok, a yoke is a "potential progress"...to what? No steering wheel? Why bother to even have one if the goal is none at all, and you won't be steering anyway? Why the incremental loss? What is there to adapt *to*? Per *my* professional experience and observation, we see and debate this all the time. There are lots of people in my field, mostly the academics, who are that eager to discard 50+ years of medical experience just to write the paper that later reports that that new treatment caused 30% toxicity. Try that in a community setting. But that's the beauty of academic medicine--you can damage people in the name of science and still get about 10 publications out of it.

In your defense, a guy like you whose job it seems is to "design/engineer", a "publish or perish" mindset is required. I get that. It's your job. But for us "consumers" who are a bit more sophisticated than neurotic white-phone holders who can't function without the one they are told they must have, what seems like a great idea and "progress" sometimes is just not that at all, no matter how many times it was championed during the meetings. Surely you have seen this in your field, as it is not uncommon. There are engineering/design graveyards chock full of "progress" and many engineering man-years wasted. Hell, something as simple as menu structure on an automotive infotainment screen seems to elude the best and brightest designers in the field. While I'm sure anyone could "get used to" a yoke and convince themselves it is good for them, I would ask, "why"? Hey, if it comes on a $150K car as the only option, I'd sure as hell try to get used to it. Maybe even like it (like the old BMW menu system...) Maybe even look down my nose at "circle turners".

From a 3OK POV yes. There have been various splits but for a large portion of driving, the thought is autonomous driving is a lynch pin to a lot of current issues within urban centers. Not just here, but globally.

OEMs have necessary relationships with federal and city governments to integrate product planning decisions along with of course other business necessities. $1 billion (average new car development costs. EVs on the higher end) budgets dictate by nature to lead planning and foresight into technical advancements, most that cannot exactly be broadcast to the general public for obvious reasons (Political/IP/first to market edge, capital allocation etc).

The consumers who are more ‘traditional’ in interpretation of changes. They can be ‘right’ in any point in a consumerable centered multi nationals product gestation. But the key is-those exploration and subsequent failings by nature (exploration) have been keys to progress in any sector. That simply isn’t conjecture on my part from a historical perspective. The other key is what is usually viewed as progress (again, there are those who still drive 60 era cars and that’s awesome) had many irritations before it’s ‘zenth’ (slowing refinements) form/function.

And the process inevitably begins again.

The medical correlation makes be a bit uncomfortable-this is art/engineering/consumerism vs. to some, the study of human health-if consumerism is creeping into that discipline, then by definition that is a different conflict then the admittedly tortured process of creation of a product such as an automobile.

Without examining or having an understanding of a process, I’ve learned that I’d have a limited POV-I need to know the ‘why.’ I cannot speak to the UX/IX folks work-I will say I admire the work that they do and the progress they’ve made
within the industry-a lot of my former colleges have come from Tesla so it’s been interesting getting an insight into design philosophies.

 

[ForDesign]

To answer the ‘bias’ comment: I’ve thoroughly addressed the Tesla implication of the engineering decisions of the steering wheel. Toyota has addressed them in its interpretation. The dismissal of even a visual very lengthy hands on review of the findings of the Toyota process is interesting.

 

[father_of_6]

I like the yoke because it's easier to drive with my feet.

 

[Big Toys]

The other key is what is usually viewed as progress (again, there are those who still drive 60 era cars and that’s awesome) had many irritations before it’s ‘zenth’ (slowing refinements) form/function.

This is an interesting statement, and a topic I've discussed with enthusiasts who drive these old cars. It's about the nostalgia. Practically everyone agrees that most cars of that era were generally poorly made regardless of whatever tech or lack thereof was being tried out on the buying public, and Sundays under the hood or under the car was a required feature.

I appreciate your insider perspective. Change is good when it brings advantages. Change is not always good when the engineering team had to produce something, anything, for the paying client, who then foists it upon paying customers.

Without examining or having an understanding of a process, I’ve learned that I’d have a limited POV-I need to know the ‘why.’

Many times, "why" is irrelevant. What the client wants, the client gets.

 

[ForDesign]

This is an interesting statement, and a topic I've discussed with enthusiasts who drive these old cars. It's about the nostalgia. Practically everyone agrees that most cars of that era were generally poorly made regardless of whatever tech or lack thereof was being tried out on the buying public, and Sundays under the hood or under the car was a required feature.

I appreciate your insider perspective. Change is good when it brings advantages. Change is not always good when the engineering team had to produce something, anything, for the paying client, who then foists it upon paying customers.

Without examining or having an understanding of a process, I’ve learned that I’d have a limited POV-I need to know the ‘why.’

Many times, "why" is irrelevant. What the client wants, the client gets.

Two things: it is absolutely the customers responsibility to decide if a product is for them. In the very particular case of purchasing an automobile, there are many paths to transportation. Such is choice.

And again, perspective is important. It’s important to me to know the why-designers are futurists in part (as well as working with actual futurists within OEMs) so again knowing data that the general public isn’t privy to can help us do our jobs better.

Again, perspective re: when engineers (in other words the entire company) has to produce a sellable product-certain things are loved at first blush (big HP numbers, which in another POV can absolutely be regarded as ‘produce something-anything’ vs. other tangible benefits within the budget = results delta) while others will be more dividing in nature (styling/form changes).

As always, I appreciate all discussion!

 

[White Shadow]

I'm pretty sure that I saw a post where someone put a Model 3 steering wheel on a new Model S.

Does that exist? Or was I dreaming it? LOL

 

[father_of_6]

I'm pretty sure that I saw a post where someone put a Model 3 steering wheel on a new Model S.

Does that exist? Or was I dreaming it? LOL

I think so... or we both had the same dream.

 

[Plaid to Mod 3]

That makes you a *very* biased opinion though... having been a pilot. I'm biased too though, since I think we've already invented the best steering device and it's round.

For sure I think the yoke wins for visibility, and it's got a cool factor since it's rare. I can't see it ever winning the safety argument though. And from reading, sounds like long road trips are more fatiguing on the arms with the yoke.

The yoke is only fatiguing if you care about actually having some input over what the car is doing. If you're comfortable letting the car do whatever it wants and having minimal override abilities then it should be fine but I don't think your life is going to last very long.

 

[Plaid to Mod 3]

What’s the advantage of a over an 1000hp sedan? That’s a ‘change’ vs norm in the luxury sedan category. Can you list the precise advantages if you don’t categorize is as ‘dumb’?

For the record-I classify ‘change’ as ‘potential progress.’ Per my profesional experience and observation.

There were people who thought replacing V8s with forced induction engines with less cylinders were ‘dumb.’ Those earlier engines did suffer from turbo lag, carbon buildup etc. But such is progress and transition.

There were those who thought carbon ceramic brakes were ‘dumb’. As of today, there still exists a delta in which a properly set up six piston braking system and pads will match the performance of the former for most users.

There were those who thought cruise control was ‘dumb’ and dangerous-an earlier innovation not coincidentally to process (time/refinement/customer adaptation etc). There was a spike in deaths at times with the varying levels of added autonomy to cruise control.

Such is progress. There are some (most) that lament changes that don’t line up with their perspective bias.

My inherit bias as a someone who works in the industry is that I’m aware of the process of industrial design and automotive design on quite a few levels. There is a tremendous amount of planning, engineering, data, discussion and validation that goes into the creation of every part within an automobile, which add up into the thousands vs other disciplines, like CP (consumer products, even though the modeling of some detergent bottles are pretty sublime).

Most consumers who actually care enough about a, um, consumerable will fall into a few vocal camps. I know that from a historical perspective, consumers will complain and adapt. Such is life. But the value I’m attempting to bring onto this platform is an insight into how things actually work within the industry and I stand by my assertion that the OP ‘scientific’ approach was bias driven more than process driven. Your free to scan this thread for his/her responses to those challenges. All have been literally challenged those points with data.

The response ‘I’m not buying it’.

If that brings value to you, that’s awesome. But again, that doesn’t have to be accepted/agreed upon by all. But outside of validation of bias, what other value is that bringing to this discussion?

Okay that's an interesting video that you posted. did you actually watch it? In the video it said that the 8:00 and 4:00 position is actually preferable to the 9 and 3. Unfortunately, with the yoke you can't use the 8:00 and 4:00 position because it is a rectangular edge. This adds a lot of argument to a circular steering wheel on a lower portions.

So moral of the story here is that the yoke is inferior to a steering wheel for two reasons: it's missing the entire upper part of the 360° wheel and the lower part is actually rectangular so you are not able to utilize positions such as 8:00 and 4:00 that are encouraged in the video that you posted.

 

[Plaid to Mod 3]

I'm pretty sure that I saw a post where someone put a Model 3 steering wheel on a new Model S.

Does that exist? Or was I dreaming it? LOL

You're probably dreaming. I oftentimes found myself dreaming of a steering wheel while driving a yoke especially on road trips. Funny how much of a physical and psychological impact and inferior mode of control has on us over long periods of time.

In actuality you did see a model 3 steering wheel on a model S but it took a whole lot of work to do it

 

[Plaid to Mod 3]

I'm pretty sure that I saw a post where someone put a Model 3 steering wheel on a new Model S.

Does that exist? Or was I dreaming it? LOL

Dreaming of a steering wheel while using the yoke is completely normal, I wouldn't stress about it.

 

[White Shadow]

You're probably dreaming. I oftentimes found myself dreaming of a steering wheel while driving a yoke especially on road trips. Funny how much of a physical and psychological impact and inferior mode of control has on us over long periods of time.

In actuality you did see a model 3 steering wheel on a model S but it took a whole lot of work to do it

How much work could it possibly be? Swapping out a steering wheel isn't too difficult. I'm guessing that there might be some coding work to go from one car to another within the same brand though. Is that the work you're talking about?

 

[EvilNuff]

One thing this thread does, that I find very interesting, is present a well thought out, rational, explanation for why OP does not like the yoke. One thing I have not seen, and I have looked, is any similar argument for why those who do like the yoke prefer it to a wheel. I have found threads purporting to offer such but they are filled with either mistakes, opinions or just mistruths. There is nothing wrong, at all, with someone preferring a yoke for any aesthetic reason they want to name, but the reality is Tesla should be offering the wheel as an option at minimum.

 

[father_of_6]

One thing I have not seen, and I have looked, is any similar argument for why those who do like the yoke prefer it to a wheel.

Wait, hey... what am I, chopped liver?

I like the yoke because it's easier to drive with my feet.

 

[danp]

I'm pretty sure that I saw a post where someone put a Model 3 steering wheel on a new Model S.

Does that exist? Or was I dreaming it? LOL

Yup, there is one, but it’s a very bespoke solution and not something you can buy or do yourself easily.

 

[Wol747]

There is nothing wrong, at all, with someone preferring a yoke for any aesthetic reason they want to name, but the reality is Tesla should be offering the wheel as an option at minimum.

But don't forget that the lack of stalks is IMO one of the worst parts of it.

 

[TessP100D]

But don't forget that the lack of stalks is IMO one of the worst parts of it.

Well said and thank you.