Future Model S and what's the meaning of "platform change"

[Omer]

Considering for a moment some factors for the future of the Model S. Electrek has shown pics of next summer's interior refresh and indicated that the next platform redesign will be in 2021. That's the part i don't fully understand. It seems traditional automakers do a full platform redesign every 6-10 years and they wait that long because a full redesign costs billions of dollars. But does the same hold true for electric cars? What all is involved in a full redesign? The battery pack is still under the car, so what changes can be made with a complete overhaul that can't be made using Tesla's current incremental changes? Will next summer's interior refresh probably include some exterior improvements?

I'm trying to decide whether to buy a used Model S now and drive it till the totally new one comes out in 2021 or wait till next summer and go all in with the interior refresh. I'm sure no one here knows the answer but if I knew there would be some exterior changes next summer in addition to interior, I'd probably wait for summer.

 

[cgrubbe]

If you like the Model S the way it is now, buy it. There will always be rumors of a refresh or redesign and as we've all learned with Tesla they operate on their own timeline.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Tesla has already done several Model S interior refresh updates and two exterior updates.

First exterior update was when they installed additional cameras and sensors for Autopilot. The second is when they put on new front and read end caps. Believe that lighting has also been updated.

Several chassis updates have been done with suspension of both coil and air calibrations and parts changes. Tire and wheel combinations and specifications have happenen from time to time. Staggered wheel/tire combinations have come and gone. Braking regeneration has been improved and creep innovated.

Drive lines have been updated with next generation traction motors and many different battery sizes and ranges have been offered. Some of the early 60 batteries have offered later upgrades to 75 batteries.

Automatic windshield wipers and automatic headlights have been upgraded via OTA updates.

Guess my point is that waiting for the next big thing means never getting a Tesla. No way of knowing for sure what is going to be coming down the line as Tesla has a policy of continous updates. When the latest configuration becomes approved, it is put into production with little notice.

Someday, Tesla will redesign it's battery packs with the latest innovations, like they did with the 100 KW. It had better battery control, advanced packaging and advanced cell cooling.

Spoiler alert. No matter what innovation you wait for, another one will be coming along right behind it. Sometime you just gotta go for it.

A big benefit for Tesla is that many of the innovations come to the older cars Via OTA updates. Many had their 75 kw batteries uncorked to offer much better performance. This was done at no charge and just needed a trip to the service center to be done via keyboard.

 

[Brettski]

I’m just the messenger, but according to Elon, “there’s no such thing as a Tesla refresh.”

Elon Musk on Twitter

I’m glad I stopped waiting and bought my Model S. In your scenario if you waited until 2021, do you think you’d be grandfathered into that iteration for years to come, with no threat of change or upgrade? History would not support that assertion. In that same tweet, Elon said Tesla upgrades vehicle hardware every week.

 

[brkaus]

The article you refer to is speculation. It may happen, may not.

But as others have pointed out. There is a lot of change ongoing. The car is much earlier in its development life than done more established models.

 

[DocZ]

Model S desperately needs something at this point. Red seats should at least be coming soon.

It just feels STALE compared to the 3. Plus no major upgrades in 2H 18 which is really surprising to me. Hopefully a bigger battery to differentiate further from the 3.

 

[Twiglett]

Just get the Tesla that suits you.
I waited but only because I wanted a smaller car than the S.
As @Uncle Paul said, if you keep waiting for features you’ll never get a car.
I could have kept waiting 6 more months for white seats, but that was nearly 9000 miles ago - that’s 9k miles of “god I’m glad I bought my Tesla”

 

[BestRadar]

Exclusive first look at Tesla Model S and Model X interior refresh: going spartan like Model 3

I hate the way they are going with this refresh, Looks like what I hate about the Model 3 they want to change in the Model S/X.

 

[Omer]

Tesla has already done several Model S interior refresh updates and two exterior updates.

First exterior update was when they installed additional cameras and sensors for Autopilot. The second is when they put on new front and read end caps. Believe that lighting has also been updated.

Several chassis updates have been done with suspension of both coil and air calibrations and parts changes. Tire and wheel combinations and specifications have happenen from time to time. Staggered wheel/tire combinations have come and gone. Braking regeneration has been improved and creep innovated.

Drive lines have been updated with next generation traction motors and many different battery sizes and ranges have been offered. Some of the early 60 batteries have offered later upgrades to 75 batteries.

Automatic windshield wipers and automatic headlights have been upgraded via OTA updates.

Guess my point is that waiting for the next big thing means never getting a Tesla. No way of knowing for sure what is going to be coming down the line as Tesla has a policy of continous updates. When the latest configuration becomes approved, it is put into production with little notice.

Someday, Tesla will redesign it's battery packs with the latest innovations, like they did with the 100 KW. It had better battery control, advanced packaging and advanced cell cooling.

Spoiler alert. No matter what innovation you wait for, another one will be coming along right behind it. Sometime you just gotta go for it.

A big benefit for Tesla is that many of the innovations come to the older cars Via OTA updates. Many had their 75 kw batteries uncorked to offer much better performance. This was done at no charge and just needed a trip to the service center to be done via keyboard.

Thank you very much for the list of detailed changes. This goes right to my point. Does anyone understand why it costs so much money for a carmaker to create a "new platform"... I've heard it referred to as a new platform, new chassis, full refresh etc. But it seems like car makers are relatively limited to the changes they can make to a vehicle until they do one of these complete overhauls. Yet, Tesla nips and tucks at so many parts that is there really anything left from say a 2012 Model S in a 2019 Model S? If so why is Electrek talking about an interior refresh and then a full refresh. That lines up with how most carmakers do it. I just don't understand what all is involved in a complete refresh that costs billions of dollars.

Even when Elon discussed building the Model Y on its own platform and then changed back to building on the model 3 platform to save money and time. It seemed like moving to its own platform was so extreme he described it as being walked back from a cliff. I guess I don't get what the difference is between platforms? You have a metal chassis and that can be any appropriate length and then stamped parts above with some interior, what is so expensive about changing that? And specifically what is the expensive part? The same robots can be reprogrammed to build different parts, the bill of goods should cost about the same, so what am i missing?

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

Tesla will change the motor configuration to be like the model 3. They would probably also update the battery packs to reflect the model 3 so they only need to build one type of packs so we might be seeing 105kwh or higher packs with the refresh. Of course the usual update like faster autopilot hardware and mcu. Maybe even similar dash or head up display to differentiate between the model s and 3. More cup holders and thoughtful interior.

Those are the refresh I am banking on now that tesla is profitable and might not need to keep things constants in pursuit of margins.

 

[Uncle Paul]

• Manufacturers do model changes to adapt to changing markets and to take advantage of technology and improved building processes.
• They may incorporate additional safety to conform to newer testing processes.
• May want to make their vehicle easier and faster to produce.
• Want to move major components around for better weight balance, handling, performance or just to adapt to new suppliers offerings.
• Tesla tends to do this in smaller ongoing steps instead of changing the whole car at once.
• Waiting for the "best" Tesla will rarely have you driving the best Tesla for more than a short while.
• Elon says best time to buy a new Tesla is when you need a new car. Then drive it until enough changes have been integrated to justify you buying a new Tesla.

 

[ReddyLeaf]

Spoiler: I know nothing about car manufacturing, but that never seems to stop me from acting like an expert on the internet.

I’ll guess that platform changes involve moving very heavy parts around (motor, engine, batteries, transmission, heat pump, ac, and whatever), which requires moving very strong bracing connections around, which results in a complete safety and crash analysis, all initially done with software models, but eventually requiring building and testing multiple prototypes. Hence, this is done sparingly, with long term resource constraints (engineering and design folks) in mind.

Minor refreshes, probably involve lighter, cosmetic items, that are not critical for safety. Again, just guessing here, but the safety models should allow for minor shape, volume, and mass changes for many parts. Inside a specific range, there is no effect and can be changed without much work. This is my guess as to why the initial 40 kWh battery was actually a software limited 60. The lighter version probably wouldn’t fit the safety analysis, and required independent verification. Thus, lower level engineering personnel can swap in/out items without exceeding the initial safety basis.

Since Tesla is putting out 3-4 completely different vehicles in the next 2-3 years (Semi, Truck, Roaster, Model Y), I’m guessing again that those higher level engineers are pretty busy and the MS or MX refresh must wait until they have more time. Plus, I’m guessing that the new bigger batteries won’t be available in large quantities until the M3 demands are met.

 

[brkaus]

Also, I believe any change has lots of hidden costs. For example, inventory of spare parts for multiple revisions. Ideally, the latest would work, but that isn't always the case.

And of course there are safety tests. Cars smashed, fees to people doing the certification, etc.

 

[BluestarE3]

Exclusive first look at Tesla Model S and Model X interior refresh: going spartan like Model 3

I hate the way they are going with this refresh, Looks like what I hate about the Model 3 they want to change in the Model S/X.

Keep in mind that the contents of the cited article is speculative.

 

[Kandiru]

Who agrees with me that Model S platform is revolutionary and very safe, and will likely be carried over for 30 years? Of course with many tweaks and improvements.

 

[BestRadar]

Who agrees with me that Model S platform is revolutionary and very safe, and will likely be carried over for 30 years? Of course with many tweaks and improvements.

I would like a refresh because its getting stale but I don't want my Model S to look like a cheaper Model 3. I am sorry I don't like the minimalist look.. I want to feel like I am in a $100k car... There was an artist rendering posted some time ago and I wish Tesla would move in that direction.

 

[10dot]

Thank you very much for the list of detailed changes. This goes right to my point. Does anyone understand why it costs so much money for a carmaker to create a "new platform"... I've heard it referred to as a new platform, new chassis, full refresh etc. But it seems like car makers are relatively limited to the changes they can make to a vehicle until they do one of these complete overhauls. Yet, Tesla nips and tucks at so many parts that is there really anything left from say a 2012 Model S in a 2019 Model S? If so why is Electrek talking about an interior refresh and then a full refresh. That lines up with how most carmakers do it. I just don't understand what all is involved in a complete refresh that costs billions of dollars.

Even when Elon discussed building the Model Y on its own platform and then changed back to building on the model 3 platform to save money and time. It seemed like moving to its own platform was so extreme he described it as being walked back from a cliff. I guess I don't get what the difference is between platforms? You have a metal chassis and that can be any appropriate length and then stamped parts above with some interior, what is so expensive about changing that? And specifically what is the expensive part? The same robots can be reprogrammed to build different parts, the bill of goods should cost about the same, so what am i missing?

My guess is that platform means different things in Tesla vs. ICE context.

I think "platform" in the traditional automaker sense is a slightly different thing. In a traditional ICE chassis, the entire car is basically designed around A) housing the engine and B) transferring that engine power to the wheels. Once you've designed a chassis that fits over a specific drivetrain you're pretty much locked in to a basic shape. Look at Audi: everything from the A3 --> A5 is basically the same car... it's a shell over that 2.0 drivetrain. As soon as you go up to the V6 "platform" it takes on a much different look, largely because the whole thing has to be redesigned/tweaked to accommodate a bigger engine.

Think of what the Tesla "platform" consists of. It's the battery pack and drive units, really. Since the battery is just a flat slab, and the drive units are positively tiny compared to a V6, you have way more flexibility to change the bits on top without having to modify the underlying platform much at all.

 

[P85DBeast]

Exclusive first look at Tesla Model S and Model X interior refresh: going spartan like Model 3

I hate the way they are going with this refresh, Looks like what I hate about the Model 3 they want to change in the Model S/X.

I 100% agree, If they take the interior of the Model S/X like the M3 I will not being buying the refresh car. I'd just go ahead and order this current model version of the MS. I don't want a M3 interior at all it's not what I like..I know some people will not be buying the refresh MS if the interior looks like that.

 

[buzescu]

Model 3 is more advanced technologically than S simply because a lot of learning from building the S has been applied. This will go into the S. It is all about efficiency and reliability. S has a huge amount of wires and components are spread all around the car. The M3 It is much better architected. For example the battery, chargers and motors are all one block built in Nevada (so I read); easier to replace, repair, deliver, connected etc. And less than half the electric cables than the S meaning less connectors more reliable in operation. With the Y Elon said the car will only have under 500ft (versus 10,000 on S) of wires on a totally new architecture. This will make it much easier to build, more reliable less need to be taken to service, easier to QA etc etc. This is where the S will go and I believe that new "platform" will be a huge smack on the face of competition. But should you wait? These cars will be like Apple phones just 100x more expensive but they will cannibalize each other in time ... nothing you can do about it. Just keep in mind... the S is technically a much older architecture conceptually but it does not mean the car does not perform. To me this all turns into reliability, useless rattles inside, stupid failures from bad harnesses or from deliveries with harnesses not connected at all or simply failing electric/electronic parts. All the rest sure it is assumed, the CPU will always be better and better, the LCD will be better every year, maybe OLED, maybe curved (however that picture by the Apple fun up here with the screen curved towards to top will get huge glare from the windshield and won't be easy to see either; useless but it looks nice in Photoshop!

 

[strider]

I believe the gigafactory is only building 2170 cells right? If so, then at some point Tesla will switch the S and X from 18650s to 2170s. That will require a pretty major update as those cells are taller so new packs, potentially a new frame, etc.

I just wish Tesla would sell me a 100kWh pack for my P85 as I could use some more range but don't need anything else from a new vehicle.