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Gen 3 Powertrain Speculation (based on current drive units)

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by ratsbew, Nov 29, 2014.

  1. ratsbew

    ratsbew Member

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    With the introduction of the dual motor Model S, Tesla now has quite a few different motor/inverter options. Let's take a look.

    From the S60 & S85:
    380HP Rear Unit

    From the 85D:
    188HP Front Unit
    188HP Rear Unit

    From the P85D:
    221HP Front Unit
    470HP Rear Unit

    What can we speculate about the Gen 3's powertrain from this?

    Base Model 3:
    188HP Front Unit Only - More power than most modern 4 cylinder turbocharged engine options

    Mid Model 3:
    221 HP Front Unit Only - V6 power

    AWD Model 3D:
    188HP Front Unit - V8 sports coupe power
    188HP Rear Unit

    Performance Model 3:
    380 or 470HP Rear Unit - High performance sedan

    Performance+ Model 3P+:
    470HP Rear Unit - Supercar beating
    221HP Front Unit

    Obviously just complete speculation. I don't know if front wheel drive or rear wheel drive will be the standard (I'd hope FWD).
     
  2. trils0n

    trils0n 2013 P85

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    I'd assume it would be RWD. Model 3 is supposed to compete with the BMW 3 series. Those are either RWD or AWD. No reason to go FWD. FWD is generally a cost saving measure for ICE cars. No cost savings going FWD in a car designed to be an electric car.
     
  3. ratsbew

    ratsbew Member

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    FWD is nice in snow because the steering wheels are powered. It's true that electric negates many of the benefits FWD provide to an ICE.
     
  4. linkster

    linkster Member

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    I would like to reserve the:

    3PD ++ Hyper-Car

    470HP Rear Unit
    470HP Front Unit :biggrin::biggrin:
     
  5. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Highly unlikely that the 3 will be FWD. I'm inclined to say 0% chance.
     
  6. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    Possibly the Base 3 will be the 188HP with a 45kW battery that they will be able to get 200 miles of range out of at 65mph, just barely. Of course there will be a larger battery available, maybe a 75. I'm just guessing wildly, of course.

    Then a Dual motor version with two 188HP.

    Then a P version with a 380HP, and P D version with a 380 and a 188.

    Just speculating. But certain that all the single motor versions will be RWD.
     
  7. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    FWD will allow it to get better regen (helps in city efficiency), but other than that, I think the segment will accept RWD a lot better than FWD.
     
  8. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Marginally, and only if the pack can accept a higher C rate. I don't think current regen levels are traction limited.
     
  9. Tasdevil

    Tasdevil Member

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    The base model 3 will match the model S60 in performance.
    There's no reason to make it as slow as a leaf or fwd.
    Elon has repeatably said tesla want to show that an electric car can be better than a gas car in every area.
    The modelS has a winning formula and tesla won't change it when all their chips are on the model 3.
     
  10. Model 3

    Model 3 Active Member

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    No, the ICE FWD is nice in snow because the engine is right on top of the drive-wheels. Just at it is with a RWD and rear engine.

    In a car with the electric motor between the wheels on the driving axle, there is almost no benefits for the FWD, especially not with a low, flat and heavy battery pack between the axles.

    - - - Updated - - -

    In basic we are only talking about two different motors. The "old" and the "new". By making small adjustment to them, and adjust the inverter, they can take out what they want (within some limits) of power and torque.

    We know that the motor(s) to be used by the Model 3 will be of the "new" type. The "old" motor is for Gen-II (and maybe Gen-IV/V?). And it was said that the motor(s) on Gen-II will be *based* on this new motor architecture. So we will probably not see 188HP or 221HP on Model 3. Model 3 P-D may have 240HP rear and 150HP front, M3-D 150HP x2 and M3 170HP RWD. Or something else...
     
  11. Tasdevil

    Tasdevil Member

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    his point has to do with the fact that a fwd drive car just lets the rear wheels roll, which can be easier to control the car in slippery conditions.
    Eg; rwd doing donuts compared to fwd doing donuts.
     
  12. Model 3

    Model 3 Active Member

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    The differences is if it is the front wheels or the rear wheels that will slip. Oversteering vs understeering. My personal preferences is to let the wheels that you are steering the car with roll free.

    Yes, I live a place with long winters and lots of snow/slippery conditions. Yes, I have driven a lot with RWD and FWD. My current cars are both FWD, but that is not because I prefer FWD, just that it dos not mater too much, so I really don't care on way or another. The downside of FWD is having to drive in reverse up steep slippery slopes.
     
  13. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    To me a RWD car is more predictable in it's behavior, and thus easier to control.
     
  14. TES-E

    TES-E Member

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    All else being equal, I will always choose RWD over FWD.

    The vast majority of race cars are RWD... wonder why?
     
  15. 30seconds

    30seconds Active Member

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    My guess is that they will want to keep the number of variants down for production efficiency standpoint. With that said I think we will get similar set to current S line up - a base RWD, an AWD version and a performance AWD version with the higher rated motors. I kind of doubt that they have stopped trying to improve the motors and inverters so I would expect different HP options then those currently available.
     
  16. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

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    I have said for some time that the base version of the Model ☰ would likely be rear wheel drive and use a refined version of the motor from the Tesla Model S 60. That was originally a 302 HP powerplant, and is now rated at 380 HP instead. So I guess the refining process has been completed already for what would be powering a Tesla Model ☰ 60.

    I had previously stated that a performance version of the Model ☰ would have a higher capacity battery pack and would be 500 HP with dual motor all wheel drive. With the advent of the Tesla Model S P85D, it seems I may have been rather conservative with that estimate. 707 HP (260+447) would be just fine in my Tesla Model ☰ P135D Coupe with Falcon Wing Doors.

    In between I imagine a Model ☰ 85D at 442 HP (221+221) and maybe a Model ☰ P85D at 568 HP (188+380).

    There will not be a front wheel drive version of the Model ☰.



    JRP3 wrote, "Highly unlikely that the 3 will be FWD. I'm inclined to say 0% chance."

    Precisely. I keep wondering why people keep suggesting a front wheel drive Model ☰, when Tesla Motors has repeatedly said the cars will go after the BMW 3-Series. I do not believe Tesla Motors will ever release a front wheel drive car for use in the United States of America. There is the outside chance that they may deign to release small city cars as a Generation IV vehicle for very crowded locations in Asia and Europe that have narrow streets and where residents have no specific need to go on road trips at all.



    ecarfan wrote, "Possibly the Base 3 will be the 188HP with a 45kW battery that they will be able to get 200 miles of range out of at 65mph, just barely."

    Tesla Motors wants to achieve more than 200 miles of range, as a minimum -- not a maximum, for Generation III vehicles, as rated by the EPA. If you presume that about 10% of the battery pack is a reserve, to prevent bricking, that would mean only 40.5 kWh would be available for driving. So over 200 miles you would have to average 202.5 Wh per mile.

    This is made harder by the fact the EPA rates cars' energy efficiency based upon how much energy they figure would be supplied from the wall, including induction losses. So they would say the car used ~53 kWh to travel that distance, and rate it at 265 WH per mile instead. Thus, they would post its range as 170 miles.

    Please note that current owners of the Tesla Model S say they typically achieve a 280 Wh to 320 Wh average per mile, but the EPA rated the car at 380 Wh per mile instead. It simply will not do to engineer the Tesla Model ☰ to 'just barely' reach 200 miles in the real world, because the EPA will say you missed anyway.
     
  17. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

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    I think FWD on the base Model 3 seems likely. This is because in the smaller Model 3, space utilization will be important. If the Model 3 can't have 5 seats and a lots of space in the back (maybe even 2 rearward facing seats), that will impact popularity a lot more than FWD vs RWD. A little bit of space in the back and a little bit of space in the frunk isn't nearly as versitile as one big space at the back. Performance version will definitely have AWD, and less space in the back.

    I think Tesla is pragmatic above all else. Even BMW is rolling out a bunch of FWD cars based on the UKL platform.
     
  18. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    I don't know why you'd think the smaller Model 3 motor would not fit easily in the same location in the rear as the Model S motor. It will fit under the trunk area and will not impact the seating area.
     
  19. tga

    tga Active Member

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    ...because manufacturing costs for an ICE are reduced by FWD. You can install the entire drivetrain as a single unit, rather than in pieces (engine/tranny, rear axle, then driveshaft). This isn't really an issue for Tesla, since the drive units are installed as a single unit, front or rear.

    Cars built on the UKL platforms are low-cost, entry-level vehicles. Cost control is, presumably, paramount.
     
  20. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

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    That depends on the shape of the Model 3. By what Elon Musk says, the Model 3 will be unlike any other car, and thus, it will not simply be a scaled down Model S. Necessarily, any space that the rear wheel drive unit will take up is space that could otherwise have been used to get a larger passenger or cargo space at the back. It would make more sense to put the drive unit at the front, where it's more out of the way.
     

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