Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

General chit-chat in "For Sale" threads

MsElectric

Active Member
Oct 11, 2014
1,604
18
New York
Mod Note: A number of posts were removed from this thread. For sale threads are not the place for debates about price or discussions about pricing formulas. Please respect the sellers and keep discussion on topic and between interested parties.

This car seems reasonably priced and I wish the OP well.

Your position on discussion of prices on a public forum is a bit disconcerting though. Based on your message so from now on if someone asks more than the car goes for new for a 1 year old car, forum members are not "allowed" to point that out for the benefit of other forum members?

It seems like a bit of a draconian policy and I've never seen anything like this on the BMW and Mercedes forums where respectful and factual discussions are allowed.

I suppose this very own post of mine can expected to be censored but I felt I had to say something to clarify this policy. The more you restrict discussion the less forum members will engage and discuss with others.
 
  • Like
  • Disagree
Reactions: AWD> and cswolfe

AnOutsider

S532 # XS27
Apr 3, 2009
11,957
200
This car seems reasonably priced and I wish the OP well.

Your position on discussion of prices on a public forum is a bit disconcerting though. Based on your message so from now on if someone asks more than the car goes for new for a 1 year old car, forum members are not "allowed" to point that out for the benefit of other forum members?

It seems like a bit of a draconian policy and I've never seen anything like this on the BMW and Mercedes forums where respectful and factual discussions are allowed.

I suppose this very own post of mine can expected to be censored but I felt I had to say something to clarify this policy. The more you restrict discussion the less forum members will engage and discuss with others.

I am unsure where the idea of censoring is coming from, but that's not the case here. The for sale section can sometimes scare sellers off with how often comments from folks who aren't even interested in the product spawn discussions which bury and/or negatively affect the ability for the OP to conduct their sale (whether intentional or not).

The posts removed from the thread devolved into discussion about factors that affect price and personal sale thresholds and were not suitable for a sale thread. That discussion can take place elsewhere.

For the sake of transparency (since lately everyone seems to think TMC mods are up to no good any time action is taken), I have included the removed posts below in their entirety.

Here we go again....Please poke holes in my analysis. Plenty of people smarter than I on this forum but below is how I see it.
I agree that this forum is probably the worst place to try to sell if expecting top dollar and the best place to buy if priced right. There are just so many well informed buyers aware of the supply/demand situation going on. I look at the overall market four ways: allofcraigs.com - Search ALL of Craigslist, cars.com, ebaymotors and TMC. In general the sweet spot to sell quick with mileage between 5k and 25k seems to be: P85 $72-$77k, S85 $65-72k, S60 $58-62K. Some options (dual Chargers, yacht flooring, 21 vs 19, third row seats) appear to have very little effect on the overall pricing, some options like Pano, Tech Package and Air Suspension have a much larger effect and low mileage seems to be expected and high mileage greatly discounted (>12k annually is excessive). Colors that seem to bring in the price premiums (white, silver, grey) and price discounts (black, blue, brown). The biggest killer of resale value seems to be low VIN (reliability, built quality, age, lack of newest features or combo?) and age (2012 ouch, 2013 snore, 2014 without auto-pilot meh and 2014 with auto-pilot big premium). Seems to me the depreciation curve is @ 2%/month and $1 mile which makes sense considering Tesla's own model is 1%/month and $1/mile for their demo/loaners. I'm thinking values will take a quick and painful 10% drop when the Xs start to reach garages and then flatten out by mid 2016 with used prices:p85 <$60k, S85<$55k and S60<$45k. The Tesla buy back program will also become a major player is used resale valuation. Well, there are my total amateur guesstimates for everyone to poke holes into and ultimately time will prove just how inaccurate. Of course, the car is amazing, life is short, talk is cheap and hard earned money is well worth spending but it's a fun mental exercise for me.

Hmmmm using your formula I'm not willing to sell my 25month old P85 with 65k miles by donating it to a buyer for free plus giving them $21k of spending cash to go along with it. Does. Not. Compute.

I'll take that deal ;) I think that math holds true until about 50% depreciation before it slows down considerably. I would peg your car in the mid 60s today if you were selling and I imagine Teslas trade-in offer would be in the 40s... About right?

Over my dead body!! lol I will not sell for less than what I paid for it. Give or take a few dollars. Haha :). Honestly I have no idea what it's worth but it doesn't matter as I'm going to drive it to my grave.

If you were trying to sell your car, would you want this going on in your thread? As I noted in the original thread, we ask that members please keep discussions such as these out of for sale threads.

I have moved these posts out of the original thread so that open discussion can continue without getting in the seller's way.
 
Last edited:

cgiGuy

Active Member
Jul 9, 2013
1,500
1,082
Everywhere, Nowhere
Why not just eliminate the "See what people are saying about this item" option altogether. Then it just becomes a Panjo listing and if someone has questions they contact the seller.

While I agree that most people listing their cars are listing too high, we are all grown adults and would be expected to do some research before hitting the "Buy Now" button. I'm guilty of participating in the "it would cost this much new" replies, but I find it hard to believe that anyone that has spent more than a couple minutes in the design center wouldn't already know if a used car was massively overpriced, especially given the "no haggle" pricing of new ones.
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,386
7,515
Maine
Why not just eliminate the "See what people are saying about this item" option altogether. Then it just becomes a Panjo listing and if someone has questions they contact the seller.

While I agree that most people listing their cars are listing too high, we are all grown adults and would be expected to do some research before hitting the "Buy Now" button. I'm guilty of participating in the "it would cost this much new" replies, but I find it hard to believe that anyone that has spent more than a couple minutes in the design center wouldn't already know if a used car was massively overpriced, especially given the "no haggle" pricing of new ones.

On For Sale threads, I'm OK with moving general chit-chat or even unconstructive posts, but saying that people cannot give advice on a discussion forum is, I think, weakening the forum.
 

SmartElectric

Active Member
Jul 9, 2014
2,428
2,063
Toronto,Canada
I am unsure where the idea of censoring is coming from, but that's not the case here. The for sale section can sometimes scare sellers off with how often comments from folks who aren't even interested in the product spawn discussions which bury and/or negatively affect the ability for the OP to conduct their sale (whether intentional or not).

Riiight. So a poster with post count < 10 (newbie) decides to post a car for sale used at near or higher than new price, we are forbidden from informing them. Censorship, plain and simple.

The cars from posters with post count > 1000 are almost always spot on priced. They get it.

Couldn't be more obvious that pandering to low post count folks who are getting rid of their car is a net negative for this site, that's just the way I see it.

Of course, opinions are worth what you pay for. Consider this my gift. ;-)
 

AnOutsider

S532 # XS27
Apr 3, 2009
11,957
200
Riiight. So a poster with post count < 10 (newbie) decides to post a car for sale used at near or higher than new price, we are forbidden from informing them. Censorship, plain and simple.

The cars from posters with post count > 1000 are almost always spot on priced. They get it.

Couldn't be more obvious that pandering to low post count folks who are getting rid of their car is a net negative for this site, that's just the way I see it.

Of course, opinions are worth what you pay for. Consider this my gift. ;-)

I wish folks would stop throwing around the word censorship on a privately-owned forum. This isn't a free-for-all where anyone can post whatever they want. There are rules and guidelines to abide by and yes, posts that fall outside of those will be moved or removed.

That said, did you actually READ the posts that were moved? Wshowell does some great analysis of what prices could be, so fair play to him, but I'm not sure it was really the place for it. From there it had NOTHING to do with the sale thread. There's a big difference between "I think you're priced a bit high, see this comp" and what was pulled out of that thread.

Lastly, the request is being made universally. It doesn't matter how many posts the seller has OR what they are selling (I've curated non-car sale threads as well).
 
  • Like
Reactions: ferdboyce and AWD>

FlasherZ

Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv
Jun 21, 2012
7,024
1,013
I wish folks would stop throwing around the word censorship on a privately-owned forum. This isn't a free-for-all where anyone can post whatever they want. There are rules and guidelines to abide by and yes, posts that fall outside of those will be moved or removed.

That said, did you actually READ the posts that were moved? Wshowell does some great analysis of what prices could be, so fair play to him, but I'm not sure it was really the place for it. From there it had NOTHING to do with the sale thread. There's a big difference between "I think you're priced a bit high, see this comp" and what was pulled out of that thread.

Lastly, the request is being made universally. It doesn't matter how many posts the seller has OR what they are selling (I've curated non-car sale threads as well).

I agree with you. After reading those posts earlier, I was ok with Wshowell's analysis, up until the sentence that he starts with "I'm thinking", where the speculation starts about future values. The remainder of all quoted text doesn't add value. I probably would have let his stand but then moved the remainder.

However, I also look at it from a different direction, too... I can see TMC declaring the for-sale forum as a "non-discussion" zone, compared to your local classifieds, or eBay. The seller posts her listing, the potential buyers can ask for clarification and they can be answered in the thread; however, commentary on asking price should be set aside (and isn't possible in those fora). Consumers will vote with their wallets.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AWD>

MsElectric

Active Member
Oct 11, 2014
1,604
18
New York
Is the censorship of posts on the Tesla Marketplace too draconian?

I just wanted to voice my thoughts on what I see on the following thread to be a draconian policy to stymie the sharing of ideas and discussion. By it's very nature we are on a public forum where forum members can ostensibly share their ideas on the topic being discussed.

As long as the discussion is polite, civil, respectful, and on topic, IMHO the discussion should be allowed. A moderator's comments on the following thread leads me to believe that going forward, forum members are forbidden to say anything about the pricing of a vehicle offered for sale and it seems unreasonable for the seller, who might not get the feedback they might find useful to price their car appropriately. It also deprived someone buying the car the knowledge of others who might have been through that process recently.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/44452-2014-Tesla-Model-S-85
[@AnOutsider wrote: Mod Note: A number of posts were removed from this thread. For sale threads are not the place for debates about price or discussions about pricing formulas. Please respect the sellers and keep discussion on topic and between interested parties.]

What makes online forums useful is the ability for multiple forum members to share their thoughts and topics being discussed and back up those thoughts with facts and figures. When such interactions are forbidden and excessively censored there is no longer peer review of forum topics and I feel it is s disservice to forum members who are here to share information and learn.
To demonstrate the extent to which other forums allow such discussions take a look at the following thread on the Mercedes S class forum that resulted after a Mercedes forum member put down Tesla. A few people disagreed and stood up for Tesla to share factual information to set the record straight even though discussion of the Model S was not entirely the topic of the thread or the forum but at the end of that discussion many false assumptions of Tesla and the Model S were corrected and due to the forum moderators of the Mercedes forum being open to discussion there is now less ignorance about Tesla and the Model S. The Mercedes forum mods allowed 12+ pages of discussions about the Tesla Model S without any censorship.

http://mbworld.org/forums/new-s-class-w222/534942-s63-amg-bad-4.html


It is disheartening to think that apparently such a discussion would have been forbidden, censored, and taken down on the TMC forums based on the moderator comment I have quoted above as apparently if someone prices their S60 for $120K, it is no longer acceptable to politely tell them that price is too high.
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: AWD>

bonnie

I play a nice person on twitter.
Feb 6, 2011
16,427
9,740
Columbia River Gorge
If you're just trying to get opinions, how you named this thread leads people to believe that 1) it's censorship, and 2) it's inappropriate. Of course, that frames the discussion the way you want it to go.

In fairness, you might want to think about how YOU would feel if you had a vehicle for sale & the thread was filled with conversation that had NOTHING to do with your car for sale or, as has happened in the past, someone is taking potshots, not disclosing that THEY have a car for sale also & they're trying to torpedo YOUR sale. Would you want a little moderation then?

There are always two sides to a story. What *rights* exactly do you feel are being taken away from you by a simple decision to keep For Sale threads cleaned up a bit?

Bringing other forums into this discussion is disingenuous. I could name forums that do NOT have a For Sale section. And that's silly. This is a privately owned forum, you agreed to TOS when you joined, things have been explained, the decision fits with what several members requested ... but you want to throw it out there as censorship. I'd say that's more than a bit overly-dramatic.

And sorry. I'm laughing at bit over the fact that you called this 'censorship'. That's just silly.
 

Robert.Boston

Model S VIN P01536
Oct 7, 2011
7,844
37
Portland, Maine, USA
Moving content is not censorship, and that's the most that TMC moderators do except in rare occasions. In the example you cite, there is an important discussion topic, namely "what is the value of a used Model S?" that, absent effective moderating, will become scattered across dozens of threads that come and go as vehicles are sold or pulled from the market. We move contributions to this important topic into a common thread precisely because it is too important to be debated on a one-off basis.

Further, as @bonnie points out, someone offering their car for sale is probably not appreciative of having the newest fragment of this discussion going on in "their" thread. It surely isn't going to help them sell their car, which is why they came to TMC.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ciaopec

ChadS

Last tank of gas: March 2009
Jul 16, 2009
3,323
2,674
Redmond, WA
I doubt anybody agrees with everything the mods do, including me. But that's to be expected; they are trying to find a balance between two extremes so there will always be differences as to where the line should be drawn. There are many unmoderated forums on the internet, and after trying a few of them, I no longer wish to spend my time there. Overall, I really like the free moderating that gets done here to help with the signal-to-noise ratio. Thanks, mods!
 

SmartElectric

Active Member
Jul 9, 2014
2,428
2,063
Toronto,Canada
Fair enough.
I didn't pay anything to post here, and I get tremendous value out of the content

I get it, I had better like it or lump it. While I may not agree, I'll abide. No worries, have 20 other threads to read right now. Cheers. ;-)
 

dirkhh

Middle-aged Member
Jul 7, 2013
3,638
126
Portland, OR, USA
I doubt anybody agrees with everything the mods do, including me. But that's to be expected; they are trying to find a balance between two extremes so there will always be differences as to where the line should be drawn. There are many unmoderated forums on the internet, and after trying a few of them, I no longer wish to spend my time there. Overall, I really like the free moderating that gets done here to help with the signal-to-noise ratio. Thanks, mods!
Excellent idea. Let's turn this into another thread where we get to say "it's really hard to be a moderator, I'm glad it's not me, and while I don't always agree with you guys (and girls? Or did the only female just step down?) you are doing an excellent job".
Thanks, moderators!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ciaopec and cswolfe

ModelX

Active Member
Aug 24, 2012
1,099
205
Utah
I agreed with the move, and felt that the person selling the car did not need all the off-discussion conversation on their thread. I am glad I don't have to moderate this forum! At times it gets more aggressive/confrontational than I am comfortable with.
 

ChadS

Last tank of gas: March 2009
Jul 16, 2009
3,323
2,674
Redmond, WA
I get it, I had better like it or lump it.

That does seem to be kind of the case; but note that "lumping it" in this case does still include being able to express your opinion, as you've done here. It's helpful as it gives us all something to think about and helps the mods when they consider where to draw the next line. There were clearly tradeoffs in what was done so it's fair game to discuss.

While I may not agree, I'll abide. No worries, have 20 other threads to read right now. Cheers. ;-)

Cheers! I have a similar attitude - nothing is perfect (not even my Teslas; and according to my wife, not even me); the question is always whether the positives outweigh the negatives. I think they do indeed on these forums.
 
Last edited:

dsm363

Roadster + Sig Model S
May 17, 2009
18,278
151
Nevada
I doubt anybody agrees with everything the mods do, including me. But that's to be expected; they are trying to find a balance between two extremes so there will always be differences as to where the line should be drawn. There are many unmoderated forums on the internet, and after trying a few of them, I no longer wish to spend my time there. Overall, I really like the free moderating that gets done here to help with the signal-to-noise ratio. Thanks, mods!

Thanks from all of us to you as well. Without members like you and many others TMC wouldn't be such a great forum.
 

Ruby&Red

Member
Aug 6, 2015
33
2
USA
I have not done much research on the market for used 60s, but my first reaction to this post is that I have to be missing something.

http://ev-cpo.com/

I count 13 cars on the CPO site that are at or below the asking price for this vehicle, 8 of which have fewer miles, better warranty coverage, and comparable (or better) options. Who knows, maybe red commands some sort of market premium that I am not aware of, but even if that is the case I would go for the following red one over this car any day:

60 kWh Model S P43882 | Tesla Motors

But the thing that really confuses me here is why folks would get this car over a similarly priced and similarly optioned 85.

Perhaps you can go through your logic on this one so that potential buyers can understand your thinking.

In any case, good luck with your sale.

In the spirit of full disclose, I only found this sale by looking at the profile of a vendor whose product I was reviewing.
 

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top