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General Discussion: 2018 Investor Roundtable

Discussion in 'TSLA Investor Discussions' started by AudubonB, Dec 30, 2017.

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  1. Artful Dodger

    Artful Dodger Please, call me "Lodger" Cheers!

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    Yup, it's legal. Before the DOT.BOMB bust (circa 1999), Microsoft was making about 10% of it's profits through trading Options on its own shares.

    Cheers!
     
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  2. BioSehnsucht

    BioSehnsucht Model 3 LR

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    15+ years ago I used to dream of building a custom 90deg V-12 that was basically two Nissan RB30DE's (inline six engines) conjoined about the crank to make a 6.0L V12. Pretty much everything but the engine block itself, the crank, and the engine management would have been off the shelf parts (either OEM or aftermarket). And I wanted to stuff that into something appropriately uncommon like a Lancia Stratos or Lamborghini Miura.

    If I won the lotto I might still do it as a project, but otherwise ... it will remain only a dream. It is even more implausible now than it was then.
     
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  3. JBRR

    JBRR Member

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    It doesn't matter much that they are illiquid. Any bank with a brain would lend Tesla money to pick up money from the ground by just exercising their options and either 1)create shareholder value by reducing float or 2)sell the stocks back to the market and make a profit.
     
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  4. Artful Dodger

    Artful Dodger Please, call me "Lodger" Cheers!

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    Sounds amazing. Why not a 60 degree V-12 though?

    Cheers!
     
  5. neroden

    neroden Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan

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    Sure, Tesla can *exercise* at any time. But if Tesla wants to *harvest the time value* they can't exercise the options, they have to sell them (or sell options matched against them).

    The time value of the 2021 calls Tesla holds is $380 million, so it would be kind of nice to harvest it.
     
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  6. JBRR

    JBRR Member

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    They need to keep the 2021's as the hedge they were meant for originally.
     
  7. Buckminster

    Buckminster Member

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  8. Driver Dave

    Driver Dave Member

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    >>> "“Less than 10% of customers want a completely digital experience," he said. "Manufacturers that will win in this space will make the car-buying journey as easy as possible.""

    He then predicted that Amazon will never work because people like to go to Sears.
     
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  9. NOLA_Mike

    NOLA_Mike Grouchy

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    I'm answering in the General Thread since we're getting close to market open.

    Not enough information to answer, IMO.

    For example, for me, no. While I was working my earnings meant my tax bracket was high. Had I taken IRA money and moved it to a Roth IRA I would've paid high taxes. I retired early (well before I can draw Social Security) and now am in total control of my income by investments. Therefore, now I can withdraw what makes sense to keep me in a much lower tax bracket. This year my purchase of a Model 3 and subsequent 7500 EV tax credit means I took one IRA and converted it to Roth IRA since I can take advantage of lower tax bracket + the tax credit. Also, keeping my income low gets me lower health insurance premiums off the MarketPlace.

    In other words, many things involved and to consider when making this type of move.

    Mike
     
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  10. adiggs

    adiggs Active Member

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    I'm having trouble figuring out what you're arguing FOR @RiverCard. My best interpretation is that you see no difference between burning wood and burning fossil fuels - that they are equally to blame for the increase in carbon in the atmosphere and they are equal problems that need resolution.

    Is that it?

    As I said before, I agree with you that chemically CO2 is CO2 (modern or ancient). The problem isn't that CO2 is CO2, or that CO2 is bad. CO2 isn't bad, any more than H2O is bad. The problem is that the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is on the high side (measured against geologic history), and more importantly, the increase in the CO2 concentration has happened on a time scale measurable in human terms instead of geologic terms. And its still increasing. That increase is primarily coming from the mining of long buried hydrocarbons and burning them, rather than cutting down forests and burning those.

    H2O at too high of a concentration is also bad for humans.


    Regarding soot / particulates, that too is an issue. But its a change of topic / change of argument relative to carbon emissions. I am in full agreement that the soot from burning stuff, whether wood / biomass, or fossil fuels, is also an issue. As best I can tell, and without this different topic getting too big, the details of those issues vary depending on what you're burning. Burning wood creates soot / particulate problems that are different from burning coal, that are different from burning natural gas, that are different from burning other various grades of crude oil.

    Is it the soot / particulates from burning stuff that is really what you're arguing about?
     
  11. hobbes

    hobbes Active Member

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  12. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    If Tesla had had lots of Model 3s available to test drive, how many people would have bought without a test drive?

    I didn't read that in any way stuck in the past as you're suggesting.
     
  13. Compton

    Compton Member

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    Are these mutually exclusive? I would like to test drive a car and then place the order with a couple of mouse clicks if I'm satisfied. And have the thing delivered to my driveway.
     
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  14. BioSehnsucht

    BioSehnsucht Model 3 LR

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    Since the idea was predicated on connecting two inline motors at the crank as a V, which were never engineered for such a thing, it seemed simpler to do it at 90 degrees rather than 60 to avoid anything running into anything else. Pretty much everything above the swept area of the crank would by identical to the inline engine, a copy of the existing design, just with twice as much everything. Doing 60 degrees might have made packaging easier but would also make it more likely that changes would need to be made to accomodate things. V6's are best 60, and V8's are best 90 from a harmonics perspective. I figure if an inline six is already about as good as it gets for harmonic balancing, a V12 shouldn't matter too much what angle it operates at, as each bank is balancing itself out? Though it seems 60 degrees is more common I'm not sure if this is harmonics or packaging at play. I am at best an armchair engineer, though I had ready many books at the time on such things, I've forgotten most of the details.
     
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  15. Artful Dodger

    Artful Dodger Please, call me "Lodger" Cheers!

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    Oh yeah, I own a 3-liter V-6 with a 54 degree bank angle (24v DOHC too, made by Opel in Germany).

    But 60deg V-12s are more common due to evenly spacing the firing impulses (used by Ferrari & Lambo):

    The Physics of Engine Cylinder-Bank Angles - Feature - Car and Driver

    Cheers!
     
  16. Sean Wagner

    Sean Wagner Member

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  17. larmor

    larmor Active Member

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  18. BioSehnsucht

    BioSehnsucht Model 3 LR

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    From the same article you linked (I almost linked it earlier, actually!):

    Which is what I intuitively thought, knowing the inline six was already balanced. So I'm not sure what would be special about the 60deg V12 regarding balancing unless it's something to do with higher order forces? It might just be packaging is the driving factor.
     
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  19. oneday

    oneday Member

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    This talk of engine design has me thinking, *Why would anyone want to own a personal engine? And then drive it around places? So antiquated*

    In reality, I can’t wait for roadster II to come out. My desire for a Farrari will officially be dead.
     
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  20. Artful Dodger

    Artful Dodger Please, call me "Lodger" Cheers!

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    It comes down to having an evenly spaced firing order.

    A 4-stroke 12 cyl engine has an even firing order if cylinders fire every 60° of crankshaft rotation, so a V-12 with cylinder banks at a multiples of 60° (60°, 120°, or 180°) will have even firing intervals without using split crankpins:
    • Buick's 4.3-L 90-deg V-6 from the 1980s is an example of an engine with split crankpins
    • Porsche's Can-Am winning 917/30s from the 1970s had 180-deg flat-12 engines.
    • Ferrari's winning Le Mans cars from the 1960s had 60-deg V-12s.
    Here's the Porsche flat-12 from the 917/30 (1,000 hp w. 240 mph). That's nearly Roadster 2 fast!

    Cheers!

     
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