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German bill requires CCS and L2 plugs at every new fast charge point.

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by ScepticMatt, Jan 17, 2015.

  1. ScepticMatt

    ScepticMatt Member

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    #1 ScepticMatt, Jan 17, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2015
    Short version: Under this bill, every new DC charger has to have CCS and every AC charger L2 plugs.
    That would mean new superchargers would have to have CCS and destination chargers L2 plugs.
    The government body has to be notified of construction 8 weeks in advance in written/email form,
    and can forbid operation if those requirements aren't met and verified.

    "Fast" chargers are defined as >22kW. Lower is called "normal" charging.
    Only applies to publicly accessible locations (i.e. not inside homes or service centers)

    Link to german TTF forum threads:
    Handelsblatt: Bundesregierung standardisiert Ladesäulen
    Online Petition gegen Ladesäulenverordnung

    The bill (in german):

    Ladesäulenverordnung (LSV) BSM e.V.

    Key parts translated:
    Minimum requirement for the construction of operation of fast charging points

    During the construction of normal charging points which enable alternating current charging every charge point, due to interoperability, must at least be equipped with plugs or adapters of Type 2 under norm DIN EN 62196-2, december 2014 issue.

    During the construction of fast charging points which enable alternating current charging every charge point, due to interoperability, must at least be equipped with plugs or adapters of Type 2 under norm DIN EN 62196-2, december 2014 issue.

    During the construction of normal and fast charging points which enable direct current charging every charge point, due to interoperability, must at least be equipped with plugs or adapters of Type Combo 2 under norm DIN EN 62196-3, july 2012 issue.

    § 4 Notification and verification obligations

    Fast charging operators have to notify the government body in written or electronic form:

    At least 8 weeks in advance of planned construction of charge points and

    immediately after decommissioning of charge points.

    Operators of fast charge points have to verify by apposition of appropriate documents the compliance with the technical requirements listed in § 3 section 2 through 4

    During the construction of fast charging points and

    At the request of the government body during operation of fast charging points.

    Operators of fast charge points, which operate fast chargers before commencement of this regulation have to notify the government body of the operation and verify compliance with the technical requirements in line with § 3 section 4 by apposition of appropriate documents.

    Responsibilities of the government body

    The government body can regularly review compliance with the technical requirements for fast charging points listed in § 3 section 2 to 4

    The government body can prohibit the operation of fast charging points if the technical requirements listed in § 3 section 1 to 4 are not met or the compliance with the requirements listed under § 3 cannot be verified.

    Transitional arrangement

    Charging points which are in operation before [deployment: Date three months after commencement of this bill], are exempt from the requirements listed in § 3 section 1 to 3
     
  2. hobbes

    hobbes Active Member

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    This is a draft bill, not passed yet - still not a good direction things are going from a Tesla investors point of view. Wonder how Tesla will react, as they have said they want to push electric mobility as a whole, I think they could prove that by just complying and putting the new plugs in (given the bill is passed). One thing to also think about is that not any car plugging into a supercharger would be able to handle the same charging speed a Model S can, so Tesla customers would still have an advantage. To avoid having the SCs blocked by slow charging other cars, they could put dedicated spots. And seeing the Teslas charge much faster than their own cars might turn owners of other EVs into Tesla customers...

    But I think it is important Tesla clarifies their strategy soon so potential new customers know what to expect as far as Supercharger buildout in Germany is concerned and don´t have to fear it stopping (which I don´t think will happen). Then again, on the short term that might lead to Tesla actually accelerating SC buildout as long as the bill is not passed yet...
     
  3. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    If the requirement is per charging location and not per charger they can just put in a single CCS charger and set the price to use it to a reasonable level (better yet, farm it out). If it is per charger they have a real problem as they have no system in place to charge for the CCS outlets and would also risk blockage by other EVs. The smart thing would then be to make the payment credit card by call only and manual activation by operator. Set the price to €10.000,- per charge or so to assure no-one uses them. The only extra cost is then more cables and a remote-controlled switching relay.

    But "per charger" requirement is stupid as that means one can not put in a separate CHAdeMO and CCS charger either, but has to use the multi-standard ones.
     
  4. hobbes

    hobbes Active Member

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    I think the lawmakers would think of avoiding that. Also, Elon would lose a lot of credibility doing this after saying explicitly they´d be happy to share the SC network with other makers. Maybe a good compromise would be charging others the same S60 owners are charged ($2000 with car/$2500 after delivery) which would seem high to people to keep some out but couldn´t be argued against if your own customers have to pay the same.
     
  5. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    I'd like to see them try to regulate what a private company can charge for people using their chargers, located on private property and built with private money. That would be in direct violation of EU free competition rules.

    And yes, Elon wants to share the SC network. Not a slower CCS network blocking faster SC charging.
     
  6. EdA

    EdA Model S P-2540

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  7. kbrandes

    kbrandes Member

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    In my opinion the bill wants a CCS per Charger not per Charging Point - minimum the same number CCS !!!
     
  8. ScepticMatt

    ScepticMatt Member

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    The german bill is a implementation of this EU bill, with some extra requirements on top.
    It seems like a L2/CCS per stall will be an EU-wide requirement for AC/DC chargers by the end of 2017.

    Edit: here it is:
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32014L0094&from=DE
     
  9. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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    So, Tesla would have to add generic plugs, but wouldn't have to open up their Superchargers to all and sundry, so they'd basically have a bunch of redundant plugs.

    What this really hits is their destination charging program, which, without an adapter, is Model S only. They'd just have to get agreement for priority for Tesla owners for any donated HPWC.
     
  10. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Keep in mind that the European Model S has a Type 2 chargeport. So chargers at destinations already have a Type 2 connector and fir on any EV which has a Type 2 inlet.
     
  11. jhm

    jhm Active Member

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    IDK, such a law is going to look pretty ridiculous in ten years. What they need is a standard like China's that supports charging upto 120 kW. In ten years no one will be charging at low power.

    Regarding Tesla I don't think this is contrary at all. Look at their destination charging program. At suitable destinations like hotels, Tesla is providing a match number of HPWCs and J1776s for free to destination operators. Obviously, they are under no obligation to provide the Js for nonTesla cars, but it is really smart business. Offering such "charging hospitality" generates a ton of goodwill and welcomes the drivers of LEAFs and other EVs to consider upgrading to a Tesla on their next auto purchase. This is really classy marketing.

    I would expect Tesla to express the same attitude if pressed by such a law. This is an opportunity to provide hospitality, build EV acceptance, and cultivate a positive connection with future Tesla owners. Charging ridiculously high rates for nonTesla would be very stupid from a marketing point of view. If you approach this as a marketing opportunity, you see that you want the prospect to have a very good experience and use the opportunity to increase Tesla awareness. Think of it as a mini Tesla store. Put touch screens out there so that prospects can see videos of lovely Tesla, expore features and options, even build their own Model S/X/3, and provide contact info to Tesla. Sure, charge for free and your next car just might be a Tesla. And guess what, in the time you took to charge your i3, you would have added 211km of range to your Model S 85. Press here for more informatiom.
     
  12. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    That sounds lovely in theory but what will you say if you arrive with your Tesla at the SC and find all 8 stalls taken by low-range EVs charging at 20-40kW?
     
  13. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

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    Yeah. The only way it would work is if Tesla massively increased the number of chargers. And I really don't think it's in Tesla's business to roll out a massive CCS charging network.

    If they are forced to add CCS plugs, they should price the access high, but not so high as to cause complete outrage. Maybe around 2$/minute.
     
  14. callmesam

    callmesam Member

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    Since the batteries are smaller, the fill time will still be about the same as the Model S.
     
  15. trils0n

    trils0n 2013 P85

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    If you want to build your charge network, you have to build ours too! (We didn't believe in electric cars or fast charge networks, so we didn't build it, but now that Tesla built it, and demonstrated it works, we'll get them to pay for it!) Great idea for the incumbents. No risk for them, and lots of upside, and no need to actually commit to building anything (status quo). Shows they've finally realized how much of an advantage Tesla's Supercharger network is.

    As to the destination charging program, I thought Tesla was already installing a HPWC and Clipper Creek J1772 at least in newer sites in the USA, so not much of a change there.
     
  16. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

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    The issue is primarily that there are/will be a lot more vehicles compatible with CCS than there will be vehicles compatible with Tesla Type 2. Tesla is building enough charging locations for it's own customers, they're not building enough charging locations for all EVs. And that's not their responsibility either, Tesla is primarily a car company, not a charging infrastructure company. To force Tesla to offer CCS to the cars of other car makers is to sabotage them, just as NADA is trying to sabotage Teslas sales strategy.
     
  17. Tharo

    Tharo Member

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    this is not for Tesla, because Superchargers are privat and only for customers, it's like a charger in own house. Tesla would do not put CCS.
     
  18. ScepticMatt

    ScepticMatt Member

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    The chinese standard is limited to ~187 kW. The stations they are building are 4x120kW.
    CCS currently goes up to ~170 kW if I remember correctly. The fastest one built are the kia 100 kW ones I believe.
    But they will need to charge more often.
    Not how the german bill is worded. Doesn't matter if it's privately owned.
     
  19. chickensevil

    chickensevil Active Member

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    Tesla has said that their admittance to their network would be prepay only. So charging people 2k would be fair. At the very least they won't make it free which will just give them more money for chargers (or whatever other purposes they want to spend it for.)
     
  20. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    Tesla charges $2.5k here if you buy after taking delivery.

    German electricity is more expensive. What do they charge after taking delivery there?

    BTW Still need to see how Tesla reacts after their German lawyers advise how this applies to Tesla after reading the law in its totality not just a sentence here and there.
     

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