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German bill requires CCS and L2 plugs at every new fast charge point.

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
11,383
6,548
Yes. In my opinion, the connector doesn't need to be as large as it is - whether J1772-DC or EU CCS. The adapted type 2 connector (and the TSL02 in the US) are both far more elegant than the frankenplugs (whether J1772-DC or EU CCS).

There are also some psychological reasons for this as well -- the perception is that the bigger the connector, the more anxious and nervous people will be in using it - it's scary and dangerous when it's a bigger connector! Just as a simple example, my wife has no problems whatsoever plugging in the TSL02 at home and she does it daily. Ask her to plug the CHAdeMO connector from the level 3 station into the CHAdeMO adapter? "You can do it."

This makes a big difference for a good amount of the driving public, and will be a big issue for Model X users.
The main reason why CCS needed the extra pins is because they needed the socket to have backwards compatibility with the Type 1 (J1772) / Type 2 (Mennekes) AC connectors and the pins and wiring was designed for 80A (140A for Mennekes plug when going through 4 pins as in DC-mid mode). Yes, Tesla was able to get 370A through the same sized pins (in Europe; the US version actually has power pins the same size as CHAdeMO), but they played tricks in regards to insulation and charge tapering to get there. However, CCS being an open standard must to designed to be easily manufactured by a wide range of manufacturers and still be safe, so that is how it ends up.

CHAdeMO on the other hand was designed like a gas pump nozzle (including a lever) and was originally designed for commercial use, so that is what carries over. The newer versions have slimmed down the design significantly, but the socket makes it so there is only so much you can do.

Personally my order of preference is Tesla > CCS > CHAdeMO.
 

smac

Active Member
Aug 4, 2013
1,745
851
Nottinghamshire
The main reason why CCS needed the extra pins is because they needed the socket to have backwards compatibility with the Type 1 (J1772) / Type 2 (Mennekes) AC connectors and the pins and wiring was designed for 80A (140A for Mennekes plug when going through 4 pins as in DC-mid mode). Yes, Tesla was able to get 370A through the same sized pins (in Europe; the US version actually has power pins the same size as CHAdeMO), but they played tricks in regards to insulation and charge tapering to get there. However, CCS being an open standard must to designed to be easily manufactured by a wide range of manufacturers and still be safe, so that is how it ends up.

CHAdeMO on the other hand was designed like a gas pump nozzle (including a lever) and was originally designed for commercial use, so that is what carries over. The newer versions have slimmed down the design significantly, but the socket makes it so there is only so much you can do.

Personally my order of preference is Tesla > CCS > CHAdeMO.

Completely agree.

I will add one point to the order of preference though ;)

Tesla > CCS > CHAdeMO > Tesla CHAdeMO adapter

So if public points go to CCS (as is likely, for the very reasons you state) a move to a CCS inlet on the Model S/X/3 would be a welcome addition to EU cars (IMHO). There is no downside from usability POV, Superchargers would still work, CCS points would open up to us, and we still have the fall back to CHAdeMO with the adapter = maximum flexibility. The only downside I see is the marginal production cost increase to TM.
 

matbl

Member
Aug 18, 2013
628
2
Sweden
Completely agree.

I will add one point to the order of preference though ;)

Tesla > CCS > CHAdeMO > Tesla CHAdeMO adapter

So if public points go to CCS (as is likely, for the very reasons you state) a move to a CCS inlet on the Model S/X/3 would be a welcome addition to EU cars (IMHO). There is no downside from usability POV, Superchargers would still work, CCS points would open up to us, and we still have the fall back to CHAdeMO with the adapter = maximum flexibility. The only downside I see is the marginal production cost increase to TM.


I agree. But a CCS adapter would solve the problem as well....
 

FlasherZ

Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv
Jun 21, 2012
7,028
1,025
There's "the standard" and "the de-facto standard", sometimes different.

"The standard" for the US automotive industry is the SAE J1772-DC standard which has very little uptake. The i3 and Chevy Spark-EV have it, but there's a chicken-egg issue there. Very few pay the extra cost to put the quick charge option in the car because there are no charging stations deployed, there are no charging stations deployed because few cars have the capability to quick charge using CCS.

"The de-facto standard" in terms of deployment is considered CHAdeMO - because of a wider range of manufacturers and deployers. I could put Tesla in here, but the fact the network is deployed and controlled by Tesla only takes a bite out of that argument.

I understand why someone might say that CHAdeMO is "becoming the standard", even if it's not the "official" standard (yet). That said, I think we're in early chapters of this story. Most of the CHAdeMO chargers are underpowered... there are lots of manufacturers to join the game yet... there's a question whether the first-movers (Nissan in particular) can turn their position into an advantage, or whether they'll be cleaning up the experiments...
 
Update:

The bill didn't pass the Federal Council unchanged. Hamburg, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern und Berlin requested to postpone the decision for two days. The reson for the delay were concerns about the scope of the consequences. Hessen und Niedersachsen proposed many amendments. For instance, the bill is now expected to come into law in 2017 instead of in 3 months.

electrive.net Ladesäulenverordnung, Berlin, Clever, Regensburg, Norwegen.
 

hobbes

Active Member
Feb 11, 2013
2,798
16,252
Germany
Update:

The bill didn't pass the Federal Council unchanged. Hamburg, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern und Berlin requested to postpone the decision for two days. The reson for the delay were concerns about the scope of the consequences. Hessen und Niedersachsen proposed many amendments. For instance, the bill is now expected to come into law in 2017 instead of in 3 months.

electrive.net Ladesäulenverordnung, Berlin, Clever, Regensburg, Norwegen.

Thanks for the Update! It was delayed by two sessions though, meaning they will make changes and the vote will be in February.

Der Verkehrsausschuss der Länderkammer hat gestern die Beratungen zur aktuellen Vorlage auf Antrag von Hamburg, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern und Berlin um zwei Sitzungen vertagt, um der Bundesregierung die Gelegenheit zu geben, einen optimierten Entwurf vorzulegen.
 

Stretch2727

Engineer and Car Nut
Nov 8, 2015
620
5,083
East Coast, USA
A few questions on this proposal:

-Could tesla just build the super chargers going forward using CCS and expect use of an adaptor when super charging? I have read some of the other threads on CCS to Tesla adaptors and it is not clear if this could be done.

-It likely does not dictate the commercial terms to users. So in theory they could add to the stations and hold out for another manufacturer to pay them to use them? Using the existing infrastructure has got to be more cost effective than another manufacturer building from scratch. As an investor though, I would hope Elon would not give up too easily without a pretty big payout to Tesla.

-Above point could be complicated by how you authenticate who is using the station. Seems some type of reader/card solution would need to be developed which does not exist on the stations today.





-
 

Model 3

Active Member
Jul 13, 2014
2,133
1,325
Norway
-Could tesla just build the super chargers going forward using CCS and expect use of an adaptor when super charging? I have read some of the other threads on CCS to Tesla adaptors and it is not clear if this could be done.

And here I will add the "opposite" question: - Could Tesla just build out the superchargers as usual, and just add Tesla-SuC-to-CCS adaptor?


-It likely does not dictate the commercial terms to users. So in theory they could add to the stations and hold out for another manufacturer to pay them to use them? Using the existing infrastructure has got to be more cost effective than another manufacturer building from scratch. As an investor though, I would hope Elon would not give up too easily without a pretty big payout to Tesla.

I have not read the German bill, but from my understanding of the EU-directive that this is based on it does demand use of an none-discriminating "add-hock" payment at a "reasonable" price to prevent Tesla to just set a high price for add-hock uses.
 

glhs272

Unnamed plug faced villian
Aug 21, 2013
919
609
Burlington, WI
I hope Tesla can make some Lemon aid with these Lemons handed by the German Government. Perhaps Tesla can use this as an opportunity to further monetize the Supercharger network. They should price these chargers by charging by the minute, versus charging by the amount of energy dispensed. That should help the superchargers from getting clogged up by small batteried cars charging at L2 level speeds (cheaper for them to use a dedicated L2 charger than a supercharger).

Awfully nice of Tesla to be creating a high speed, high reliability nation-wide L3 charging network for the German Majors. Perhaps next we will see a law requiring all Tesla service centers perform oil changes and repairs of BMWs, VWs, etc..
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
11,383
6,548
EU =/= Germany

The EU is not governed by Germany.
The provision to word the EU regulation in a way that would force Tesla to add the plug was by Germany. The other member states protested (I know UK did, but don't remember the others), but it seems like Germany forced it through if it remains on the regulation. I couldn't find the link to Tesla's and UK's protest at the moment, but I will add link when I do.
 

Stretch2727

Engineer and Car Nut
Nov 8, 2015
620
5,083
East Coast, USA
I hope Tesla can make some Lemon aid with these Lemons handed by the German Government. Perhaps Tesla can use this as an opportunity to further monetize the Supercharger network. They should price these chargers by charging by the minute, versus charging by the amount of energy dispensed. That should help the superchargers from getting clogged up by small batteried cars charging at L2 level speeds (cheaper for them to use a dedicated L2 charger than a supercharger).


Could not agree more. He did say they would be adding the EU plug to the EU super chargers. He is pretty shrewd so I am sure he has a plan to make money from this. In my mind he says he wants to help all manufacturers adopt EV's at the same time his moves are fiercely competitive with the current manufacturers. (Franchise laws, superchargers, etc.). Tesla could become the EV charging VISA/MC of the world taking a small cut of every charge, at the same time I doubt this would amount Apple iTunes like revenue.

I understand the need for a standard just like I could not build a house in the US with EU sockets/plugs but I don't have to leave everyone in my house to use my socket/plug. If this part passes into law I am sure there will be some challenges as is seems to be over reaching.
 

Laserbrain

Member
Aug 15, 2015
198
140
Germany
The provision to word the EU regulation in a way that would force Tesla to add the plug was by Germany. The other member states protested (I know UK did, but don't remember the others), but it seems like Germany forced it through if it remains on the regulation. I couldn't find the link to Tesla's and UK's protest at the moment, but I will add link when I do.

You got any proof of this because it sounds like bullshiut to me.

Gemany has 96 of 751 votes in the EU. 12.8%. So get real.
 
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