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German bill requires CCS and L2 plugs at every new fast charge point.

Laserbrain

Member
Aug 15, 2015
198
140
Germany
Oh, really?

I don't think the german government gives a hoot about electric car plugs. They have got other problems. Like how to distribute refugees over Europe - and you see how well that works. Or should I say how it does not work.

So please, no more conspiracy theories.
 
The solution is simple (in the UK), add CCS to all the superchargers, give users an option of £10 per 30 minutes usage, or pay the current lifetime prepayment. As Ecotricity charges £6 for 30 minutes usage (50KW), very few none Tesla owners will choose to pay more for the super charger unless there is no other option nearby.

Remember the Model 3 will most likely be brought by people that don’t drive a long way often, so they would benefit from a per usage charge.

By making the charge time based, Tesla owners get more power for their money….

There is nothing stopping Tesla putting more power var the CCS plug once the software in the car and the charger agree they can both use the “Tesla mode”. The standard even allows for this type of thing, all chargers and car just have to ALSO support the standard mode of operation.

PS in the long term CCS charges can be used for buses etc, as the pins can cope with a MUCH higher power then the Tesla plug, it just needs the chargers to catch up with what the standard allows. CCS is a much better design for the next 30 years……

(More Tesla will be sold in the next 2 year than in the complete history of the company, more none Tesla EV will be sold per year then Tesla cars. So don’t let history restrict the mass-market.)
 

J1mbo

Active Member
Aug 20, 2013
1,609
1,459
UK
The solution is simple (in the UK), add CCS to all the superchargers, give users an option of £10 per 30 minutes usage, or pay the current lifetime prepayment. As Ecotricity charges £6 for 30 minutes usage (50KW), very few none Tesla owners will choose to pay more for the super charger unless there is no other option nearby.

Remember the Model 3 will most likely be brought by people that don’t drive a long way often, so they would benefit from a per usage charge.

By making the charge time based, Tesla owners get more power for their money….

There is nothing stopping Tesla putting more power var the CCS plug once the software in the car and the charger agree they can both use the “Tesla mode”. The standard even allows for this type of thing, all chargers and car just have to ALSO support the standard mode of operation.

PS in the long term CCS charges can be used for buses etc, as the pins can cope with a MUCH higher power then the Tesla plug, it just needs the chargers to catch up with what the standard allows. CCS is a much better design for the next 30 years……

(More Tesla will be sold in the next 2 year than in the complete history of the company, more none Tesla EV will be sold per year then Tesla cars. So don’t let history restrict the mass-market.)

Have you seen a CCS plug? It wont fit a Model S. Too big.
 
Node I said "add" CCS to all supercharger, not replace the current Tesla plug on them. (And make all new Tesla models have a CCS socket.)

As to the CCS plug allowing more power, just look at the size of the DC pins, the rest comes down to the software at the two ends of the lead agreeing on how much power can be sent along the connection.
 
All EU laws are being written into UK law, then at some point MPs may get time to revise it…… (The UK is also a small market for cars, and lot of cars a drive between the EU and the UK, even on a daily bases in Ireland.)

Remember that in the UK, the network of CCS chargers is a lot better then the USA, and Tesla chargers are not in enough locations to give the best experience. To use a Tesla charger takes a lot of planning, to use a CCS charger you just keep to the blue lines on the map (motorways).

Therefore Model 3 owners will be left behind compared to other makes of EV unless the Model 3 can be charged on a “normal” fast DC charger.

(At present most DC chargers in the UK have both CHAdeMO and CCS (Combo), and will continue to do so for some time. But there is a licence cost to including CHAdeMO, so it may not be put on all new chargers.)
 

Model 3

Active Member
Jul 13, 2014
2,133
1,325
Norway
(At present most DC chargers in the UK have both CHAdeMO and CCS (Combo), and will continue to do so for some time. But there is a licence cost to including CHAdeMO, so it may not be put on all new chargers.)
Porsche to build its own fast-charging network: 150 kW and Tesla capable?
Porsche to build its own fast-charging network: 150 kW and Tesla capable?
...
“We are in contact with other manufacturers and suppliers around the world to build a fast-charging network. Everybody has the same need. It sounds easy but getting the details agreed is hard. We already have the clear technical concept. It can even work with Teslas, with an adapter.”, says Blume.

This sounds to me like a CCS network, and that they intend to make - or know that Tesla is about to make - an CCS to Tesla adapter.
 
If Porsche uses an enhanced CCS charger they don’t need to build a network for their chargers to be useful to their car owners. They can monitor where they owners choose to charge, and add a fast charger in that location, hence each charger gives a good benefit without having to wait for the complete network.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
11,383
6,548
Node I said "add" CCS to all supercharger, not replace the current Tesla plug on them. (And make all new Tesla models have a CCS socket.)

As to the CCS plug allowing more power, just look at the size of the DC pins, the rest comes down to the software at the two ends of the lead agreeing on how much power can be sent along the connection.
The size of the DC pins appear to be pretty much the same as the Tesla connector (at least the US version; the European version uses 4 smaller power pins to achieve the same current carrying capacity). The US Tesla connector's power pins are ~9mm in diameter, which is the same as a CHAdeMO connector's. The CCS power pins appear the same size as the CHAdeMO ones and have the same power rating (up to 200A without liquid cooling), so likely are actually the same size.

What CCS adds is the potential for more power pins (2 pairs of power in US version, 3 pairs of power in European version, if you include the ones currently used for AC), not really a larger DC pin size.
 

renim

Active Member
Apr 6, 2013
1,801
2,352
Oz
CCS vehicles comprise about 8% of the UK's pulgin vehicle fleet. EV Sales: UK All-Time Top 5 (Until July '16) There is a serious likelihood that once Brexit occurs, that CCS will cease to be a supported standard in the UK, and will be left to being a manufacturer supported only standard. Tesla handles that status very well, but will VAG be willing to own non dealer CCS stations? not historically.

Correspondingly, the exit of Britain from EU means that Chademo's strongest EU market will no longer be able to lobby for tolerance in the EU. Its likely that the CCS laws will ramp up in post Brexit EU to the detriment of both Chademo and Tesla Supercharger.

Globally by then, it will so obvious that China's CAN based GBT standard is the dominant global standard by volume, that everybody will be optimized for producing for that. Since China's standard is similar to a Tesla/Chademo combination, that is great for Tesla.
 
Short version: Under this bill, every new DC charger has to have CCS and every AC charger L2 plugs.
That would mean new superchargers would have to have CCS and destination chargers L2 plugs.

I'm new to this thread... but I'm interested because of the CCS connector on the M3's going to the EU. So superchargers are being fitted with CCS Type 2 plugs... Model 3 can charge at any CCS charging station. But can another car CCS charge at a Tesla station? There is no credit card reader, no RFID reader, only the VIN number of the car. Tesla would have to allow people to register their VW's and Opel Amperas by VIN number in order to allow them to charge. Does anyone know of this happening? Does the German law include the requirement to allow other cars to use the Tesla Superchargers?
 

Cosmacelf

Well-Known Member
Mar 6, 2013
9,040
23,816
San Diego
I'm new to this thread... but I'm interested because of the CCS connector on the M3's going to the EU. So superchargers are being fitted with CCS Type 2 plugs... Model 3 can charge at any CCS charging station. But can another car CCS charge at a Tesla station? There is no credit card reader, no RFID reader, only the VIN number of the car. Tesla would have to allow people to register their VW's and Opel Amperas by VIN number in order to allow them to charge. Does anyone know of this happening? Does the German law include the requirement to allow other cars to use the Tesla Superchargers?

No, other non-Tesla cars cannot charge at a Supercharger. While the EU loves forcing companies to do things their way, I guess that was one bridge too far for it.
 

arg

Active Member
Supporting Member
Aug 22, 2012
1,817
1,821
Cambridge, UK
I can't speak for German law, but in the UK the Alternative Fuel Infrastructure Regulations (which are the UK law implementing the relevant EU directive) most of the provisions only apply to chargepoints "accessible to the public", and the definition of that (see clause 2.(2)) does not cover Superchargers - there's an exemption for "exclusive use in respect of a vehicle produced by a specific manufacturer". There are also exemptions to cover workplace charging, domestic charging, and taxis.

If the Superchargers DID fall under the regulations, then not only would they have to support CCS, they would also have to support "ad-hoc access" (see clause 5):
“ad-hoc access” means the ability for any person to recharge an electric vehicle without entering into a pre-existing contract with an electricity supplier to, or infrastructure operator of, that recharging point.

So it appears to me that the current move to CCS on the Model3 is all about the cars, and doesn't particularly help them with their obligations for infrastructure, though it's possible that in some cases it will be helpful - each country transposes the directive differently. The directive itself defines "accessible to the public" in the opposite sense - points are considered accessible to the public when they meet all the requirements for non-discriminatory access, and member governments are just required to arrange that there are enough of them, not to require that all points are "accessible to the public".
 
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