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German bill requires CCS and L2 plugs at every new fast charge point.

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Another alternative would be to put a fence around all new supercharger stations with a gate that can be opened by anyone with a Tesla. Don't know for sure but then I don't think it counts as publicly available anymore.


The legislation specifically excludes that option.

I am sure Tesla have a strategic plan for this. They spent a fortune implementing the most capable Type 2 standard in the world, which they would not have done if they thought that it was a temporary solution.

Would love to see DC power through Type 2 making it into the final law, however, to do that, Tesla would need to get their DC charging implementation added to the existing Type 2 standard, and the German law would need to be watered down slightly so that DC charging is possible through either plug standard.
 
The legislation specifically excludes that option.

I am sure Tesla have a strategic plan for this. They spent a fortune implementing the most capable Type 2 standard in the world, which they would not have done if they thought that it was a temporary solution.

Would love to see DC power through Type 2 making it into the final law, however, to do that, Tesla would need to get their DC charging implementation added to the existing Type 2 standard, and the German law would need to be watered down slightly so that DC charging is possible through either plug standard.

J1mbo, I could be wrong, but DC "low and mid" are already specified as acceptable in Type-2 (62196-2) not that I think anyone has implemented it in any form of public charging. As I understand it Tesla are using DC mid layout, but pushing the power way beyond the stated specs (how seems unclear now, given some of the earlier posts about German users measuring pin lengths and finding them the same, and physically plugging i3's into Superchargers!!! I thought there were physical differences, so I'm confused!)
View attachment 69686

Retrospectively changing the specs without changing the mechanical layout, and only insisting the materials are upgraded would potentially be a safety issue for any legacy plugs in existence. (Again assuming Tesla are relying on better quality materials rather than physical differences.)

As a broader point, I suspect Tesla were hoping they would get enough traction especially with Daimler on side, to the point where their approach would end up being the de facto standard.

Irrespective of legislation, I suspect through shear brute force the combined German motor industry (ably assisted by Bosch, ABB, Mennekes and Siemens), we are just going to see CCS everywhere in the EU. There's just too much lobbying, vested interest in protecting EU/German businesses, and political capital gone into CCS. It's highly unlikely for them to reverse course and adopt the Tesla approach.

In fact I'll go further with my speculation, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect in the next few years a CCS port will be mandated for type approval on all new EU vehicles that can accept DC charging.

It's a setback for Tesla, and one which we can bemoan, but it doesn't change the most likely outcome.
 
The countries north, west and south west of Germany all prefer non CCS vehicles, leaving only the smaller markets to the east and south east buying CCS vehicles.
Consider Germany's land neighbours, none of the important markets have CCS vehicles as a top 2 best seller, its either DC Chademo or AC Mennekes. German vehicles to travel south or west the EU needed the CCS law or else CCS would be restricted to Germany and eastern neighbours.
SwissTesla S, Mitsubishi Outlander
FranceRenault Zoe, Kangoo
BelgiumTesla S, BMW i3
NetherlandsMitsubishi Outlander, Volvo V60
DenmarkNissan LEAF, Tesla S
PolandBMW i3, Nissan LEAF
CzechBMW i3, BMW i8
AustriaBMW i3, Renault Zoe
Follow the investments in battery cell capacity and its obvious, 1st tier future plug in vehicle sales will be Tesla, Nissan and Mitsubishi with a second tier of Renault and BMW.
Even in EU, the market of charging is non CCS chargers, so although CCS charging points will be required by law, but Mennekes and Chademo will be required by market forces.
 
Renin,

The landscape will change pretty quickly for the Zoe/Kango when they remove the 43kW charging capability. It will fall back to a non-rapid capable vehicle :( Even in France I'd expect this will hurt sales.

Renault ZOE to Lose 43 kW Rapid Charging in Preference for Improved Home Charging - Transport Evolved: Cleaner, Greener, Safer and Smarter

Here in the UK, maybe aware of this, Ecotricity are not rolling out any new dual head AC/DC charge units (43kW AC + CHAdeMO). Instead all new installs are CCS/CHAdeMO units. Of course Type-2 is still extremely relevant for destination charging.

The real game changer in my view will be what VW Group do. They are late to the market with EVs but I suspect they will be a runaway success in the company car market with their PHEV range here in the UK. They are looking at PHEV versions pretty much across the range (not sure which ones are rapid capable if any yet), but when they do build a rapid capable PHEV it will be CCS.

http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/info_center/en/talks_and_presentations/2014/07/FM_04_07_14.bin.html/binarystorageitem/file/06_2014-07-04+Presentation+Barclays+London+Steiger+TOP+COPY.pdf


Like many "future gazing" threads though only time will tell.
 
I have a 60, and I'm not prepared to pay for Superchargers, they aren't on my normal routes yet (the nearest is 70 miles away), and I only use the car for my commute, or "in range" journeys (which in the UK is most
of them if you live in the middle of the country).

Plus, - and that counters the "stalls are blocked by slower charging non-Tesla EVs" argument - does anyone really believe e-Golf or i3 owners would use such cars for long trips? I mean even a trip from Berlin to the alps at "normal" autobahn speeds (around 80 mph) on such cars would mean having to charge several times, making such a journey at least a two day trip.
As long as economical diesel cars are so much cheaper (to buy and, yes, to run as well, if you count in the time and trouble you have to go for charging) than even small EVs, it will be a long time before we will see cars from other manufacturers blocking European SCs.

I think that proposed bill is there not because of Tesla, but because of the charging mayhem that exists outside the Tesla world. It's the chaos of the charging stations (which is very present in the media and therefor in people's minds when they think about the disadvantages of EVs) which is one of the biggest hindrances for EV adoption over here (in addition to the prohibitive prices of most current EVs).
 
Plus, - and that counters the "stalls are blocked by slower charging non-Tesla EVs" argument - does anyone really believe e-Golf or i3 owners would use such cars for long trips? I mean even a trip from Berlin to the alps at "normal" autobahn speeds (around 80 mph) on such cars would mean having to charge several times, making such a journey at least a two day trip.
As long as economical diesel cars are so much cheaper (to buy and, yes, to run as well, if you count in the time and trouble you have to go for charging) than even small EVs, it will be a long time before we will see cars from other manufacturers blocking European SCs.

I think that proposed bill is there not because of Tesla, but because of the charging mayhem that exists outside the Tesla world. It's the chaos of the charging stations (which is very present in the media and therefor in people's minds when they think about the disadvantages of EVs) which is one of the biggest hindrances for EV adoption over here (in addition to the prohibitive prices of most current EVs).

This is something I was thinking about, but wasn't entirely sure *where* the chargers were placed in Germany (respective to major population hubs) or the appropriate spacing between... Since things change when you are going 80MPH. It may be that Tesla chargers are not nearly dense enough to allow for a ~60 mile jump in an i3 (what I assume the pack would be reduced to if traveling at 80). So this is likely to be a valid point, until they start rolling out more city based charging. Which is something they have done quite heavily in UK and Asia. Those would be the ones most at risk of being used by someone else. It is still a concern for me that if even 1 person uses the charging without having contributed to it, that it potentially undermines the whole thing and could break from the concept of "break even" business model for Tesla. If they can't recoup the money as an upfront charge to others... either A: they will implement a pay as you go model... which is likely to increase their costs dramatically... or B: up the price we have to pay for Supercharging so others can get it for free... which I am not a fan of either.

I don't get the second issue, as someone in the US... But maybe that's just because where I am the only major DC charging available is Tesla. Nissan has some Chademo at like their stores and such... and there is no CCS charging at all. I do agree that there should be one standard, in a sense... because J1772 makes things so easy on the US side that everyone is compatible. I assume this is the equivalent of your Type 2 plug.
 
Renin,

The landscape will change pretty quickly for the Zoe/Kango when they remove the 43kW charging capability. It will fall back to a non-rapid capable vehicle :( Even in France I'd expect this will hurt sales.

Renault ZOE to Lose 43 kW Rapid Charging in Preference for Improved Home Charging - Transport Evolved: Cleaner, Greener, Safer and Smarter

Here in the UK, maybe aware of this, Ecotricity are not rolling out any new dual head AC/DC charge units (43kW AC + CHAdeMO). Instead all new installs are CCS/CHAdeMO units. Of course Type-2 is still extremely relevant for destination charging.

The real game changer in my view will be what VW Group do. They are late to the market with EVs but I suspect they will be a runaway success in the company car market with their PHEV range here in the UK. They are looking at PHEV versions pretty much across the range (not sure which ones are rapid capable if any yet), but when they do build a rapid capable PHEV it will be CCS.

http://www.volkswagenag.com/content...entation+Barclays+London+Steiger+TOP+COPY.pdf


Like many "future gazing" threads though only time will tell.

All future Volkswagen Plug-In models will have fast charging capability as standard feature: CCS
 
There is a semi-confirmed rumor that all future bmw models (yes all, or all of the high volume ones) will be PHEV (and the odd BEV of course). If true, that means a lot of CCS capable cars...

IF they go with CCS in the low EV range cars.

No reason they won't copy Mercedes, and lets face it the Merc S class is a bit of a sop. It's all about being a PHEV just for the tax breaks.. It's 8.7kW battery would charge up in <30 minutes with an AC 22kW on board charger. DC Charging (and therefore CCS) would be over kill.

TBH I doubt many S PHEVs will even see a charger... 20 miles (if you are lucky) EV range is saving you less than the coffee you buy whilst waiting for it to charge, it's just not worth the bother.
 
I don't get the second issue, as someone in the US... But maybe that's just because where I am the only major DC charging available is Tesla. Nissan has some Chademo at like their stores and such... and there is no CCS charging at all. I do agree that there should be one standard, in a sense... because J1772 makes things so easy on the US side that everyone is compatible. I assume this is the equivalent of your Type 2 plug.

"Charging mayhem" means that you have hundreds of different systems of chargers. Not that these would mean hundreds of different systems to plug in, but systems for paying for your electricity. Most charging points are provided by local electricity companies. Some offer charging for free (at least for now while there are very few EVs on the road), like the one in the town where we live. With some you have to prepay, with some you buy a special payment card (in advance, so no chance to spontaneously arrive and try to charge), with some you can pay by phone, etc. Often charging stalls are blocked by ICEs, others are temporarily out of order when you arrive, some are on private property that is only accessible during certain working hours. Etc. etc. etc.
 
The solution is pretty simple, add CCS, charge $5000 that has to be paid by check at a Tesla service center. Make the CCS as slow as possible (22.0001 kw?). Put a policy that charges money for leaving your car on the supercharger for too long (above 2h).


What will end up happening is most people won't bother paying $5000 for slow CCS chargers. Superchargers are spaced for 200 miles or more so a low range EV would have little use for them, especially for $5000. The long range EVs that will come in the future such as Bolt and etc would be too slow to charge to full in 2h and would risk extra costs. Making the CCS useless by design.

As for those saying that charging $5000 would be discriminatory as Tesla owners pay $2500. I would disagree. Tesla can argue that superchargers are funded by a 50/50 contribution where owner pays half and Tesla pays half.

Another option would be to offer CCS charging and charge by the KWH. Now Tesla will offer the $2500 option as well. (Not discriminatory if both options are offered). Except the CCS will publicly advertise $10 per kwh rate right on the CCS charger. An keep the $2500 option unadvertised. Nothing in the law forces Tesla to advertise all options right? As long as the option is offered, it is not discriminatory. (Kind of like sweepstakes which makes you buy something to enter, but has small fine print saying you don't really need to buy anything to enter)
 
One thing good to understand about EU and the European perspective in general is interoperability and enforced standardization. This is an area where, clearly, EU as an area is different from the U.S. where there is much more will and political power behind private business. Europe, by nature and by history, is quite a bit more "big government" and standardized plugs fit into that bill (no pun intended). It doesn't matter if it is private business and private ground, if there is a public interest there, it can and will be legislated.

It is the same with standardizing micro-USB charging or whatnot (although Apple managed to lobby that bill to a pointless version of the original) and interoperability clauses have also been more prevalent in European copyright legislation. Even mobile phone networks have been more standardized in Europe, even though it is not a federation like the U.S. In the same vein, it certainly can be argued that a standardized EV charging infrastructure, in the long run, will benefit the consumer by offering them real choice of an EV, as the infrastructure will be the same for all. If you lock people into your proprietary ecosystem, that can hurt competition and development of technology.

This hit the CHAdeMO first, when it was attempted to be replaced by CCS (of which Type 2 is basically a part). Considering CCS covers both AC/DC charging and is the prevalent plug in European EVs, Tesla's own charge port included (with standard European home/industrial sockets rounding out the rest of the requirements), it could certainly be argued there is no need for CHAdeMO or proprietary Tesla superchargers in Europe. CHAdeMO was the first to be hit (as an Asian backed concern), but as I understand it, the legislation turned into allowing CHAdeMO as long as CCS is there too. Now it seems to be Tesla's turn.

If Tesla turns into the iPhone of cars in the sense that everyone else is running on standard connectors and chargers, while Tesla and only Tesla is running on their proprietary network, this will create an unfortunate standards split in the market. I'm not sure, overall, if we'd be better for it - twice the charging networks, for example. Or, say, Audi (hah!) decides to do the same and we end up with three charging networks, incompatible with each other. That's not a very good direction to go to, as a world. CCS vs. CHAdeMO is more of a traditional standards fight (compare to Blu-ray vs. HD DVD), Tesla is more reminiscent of Apple's lighting port vs. the micro-USB, so different stories there too.

That is just the background of what - I think - is behind this and what they are trying to achieve through legislation. They are trying to make sure anywhere you park your EV for charging, it will be compatible with your car. This is the long-term goal, just like with gas stations (which, again, unlike some place U.S. carry diesel also as standard). I don't doubt there is also huge pressure from the German automotive industry, a powerful player in the country, which is also in large part owned by the government due to WWII history. They have hedged their bets on CCS, hence CHAdeMO and Tesla are being targeted.

Now, as a Tesla owner, I have mixed feelings about this. I think Tesla is doing the EV thing a huge favour and all of us, heck the whole of Europe and the world, should be thankful someone is doing the heavy lifting. Tesla should be rewarded for that, not punished with legislation that can hamper that progress. So, certainly, there are two sides to this story.

I guess what, in the end, I would like to see is widespread standardization happen (a standard public charger with a single widely compatible plug available in every street corner), while allowing for sparse "botique" experiences like the Tesla Supercharger network to complement that (a long-range charging solution available widely enough to be useful but sparsely enough not to be an issue for the world at large, even if a few different manufacturers were to run similar things).
 
... They have hedged their bets on CCS, hence CHAdeMO and Tesla are being targeted.....

Don't forget the GB/T standard, its the China Standard and is likely to extend along the silk roads. (Goes to 400kW, looks inspired by Mennekes and Chademo, but is substantially different, 2 plug philosophy)

but beyond the plug, The key EU legislation motivation is that every EV can PAY for the use of any charger and FEEL the grid interaction financially. Tesla pre-paid / free for life supercharging is anathema to EU per-use payment model.
 
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One thing good to understand about EU and the European perspective in general is interoperability and enforced standardization. This is an area where, clearly, EU as an area is different from the U.S. where there is much more will and political power behind private business. Europe, by nature and by history, is quite a bit more "big government" and standardized plugs fit into that bill (no pun intended). It doesn't matter if it is private business and private ground, if there is a public interest there, it can and will be legislated.

It is the same with standardizing micro-USB charging or whatnot (although Apple managed to lobby that bill to a pointless version of the original) and interoperability clauses have also been more prevalent in European copyright legislation. Even mobile phone networks have been more standardized in Europe, even though it is not a federation like the U.S. In the same vein, it certainly can be argued that a standardized EV charging infrastructure, in the long run, will benefit the consumer by offering them real choice of an EV, as the infrastructure will be the same for all. If you lock people into your proprietary ecosystem, that can hurt competition and development of technology.

This hit the CHAdeMO first, when it was attempted to be replaced by CCS (of which Type 2 is basically a part). Considering CCS covers both AC/DC charging and is the prevalent plug in European EVs, Tesla's own charge port included (with standard European home/industrial sockets rounding out the rest of the requirements), it could certainly be argued there is no need for CHAdeMO or proprietary Tesla superchargers in Europe. CHAdeMO was the first to be hit (as an Asian backed concern), but as I understand it, the legislation turned into allowing CHAdeMO as long as CCS is there too. Now it seems to be Tesla's turn.

If Tesla turns into the iPhone of cars in the sense that everyone else is running on standard connectors and chargers, while Tesla and only Tesla is running on their proprietary network, this will create an unfortunate standards split in the market. I'm not sure, overall, if we'd be better for it - twice the charging networks, for example. Or, say, Audi (hah!) decides to do the same and we end up with three charging networks, incompatible with each other. That's not a very good direction to go to, as a world. CCS vs. CHAdeMO is more of a traditional standards fight (compare to Blu-ray vs. HD DVD), Tesla is more reminiscent of Apple's lighting port vs. the micro-USB, so different stories there too.

That is just the background of what - I think - is behind this and what they are trying to achieve through legislation. They are trying to make sure anywhere you park your EV for charging, it will be compatible with your car. This is the long-term goal, just like with gas stations (which, again, unlike some place U.S. carry diesel also as standard). I don't doubt there is also huge pressure from the German automotive industry, a powerful player in the country, which is also in large part owned by the government due to WWII history. They have hedged their bets on CCS, hence CHAdeMO and Tesla are being targeted.

Now, as a Tesla owner, I have mixed feelings about this. I think Tesla is doing the EV thing a huge favour and all of us, heck the whole of Europe and the world, should be thankful someone is doing the heavy lifting. Tesla should be rewarded for that, not punished with legislation that can hamper that progress. So, certainly, there are two sides to this story.

I guess what, in the end, I would like to see is widespread standardization happen (a standard public charger with a single widely compatible plug available in every street corner), while allowing for sparse "botique" experiences like the Tesla Supercharger network to complement that (a long-range charging solution available widely enough to be useful but sparsely enough not to be an issue for the world at large, even if a few different manufacturers were to run similar things).



I don't think it is fair to compare iphone charging with Tesla charging standards. USB in itself has reached maturity so adoption of the USB makes sense. The charging infrastructure on the other hand is not really ready for a standard. At the very least the standard has to enforce future cars. Aka, every charger has to be above 100kw.

The reason why Apple locks down the iphone charging is their walled garden and they make lots of money licensing to accessory manufacturers. Tesla was ready to work with the standardization but they were not interested so Tesla went out and made the best adapter possible thinking of the future as well.

The CCS is a ridiculous concept of trying to combine the Parallel port and USB port.
 
I don't think it is fair to compare iphone charging with Tesla charging standards. USB in itself has reached maturity so adoption of the USB makes sense. The charging infrastructure on the other hand is not really ready for a standard. At the very least the standard has to enforce future cars. Aka, every charger has to be above 100kw.

The reason why Apple locks down the iphone charging is their walled garden and they make lots of money licensing to accessory manufacturers. Tesla was ready to work with the standardization but they were not interested so Tesla went out and made the best adapter possible thinking of the future as well.

The CCS is a ridiculous concept of trying to combine the Parallel port and USB port.

The single biggest problem I've faced isn't the power or speed of the chargers... 100kW is the least of my worries. I can drive to almost all of the highest populated cities in the UK from home in my S60!

What I can't do is drive to one of these cities, park up and leave my car whilst I have a meeting or an evening out, then drive home. In that context Superchargers, or in fact any sort of Rapid, are a "work around" for me.

Personally a Tesla owner's car park with 7kW chargers, near a tube station on the outskirts of London, would be ideal. I'd gladly put up with the Tube for the last few miles rather than driving and parking in central London.
 
The single biggest problem I've faced isn't the power or speed of the chargers... 100kW is the least of my worries. I can drive to almost all of the highest populated cities in the UK from home in my S60!

What I can't do is drive to one of these cities, park up and leave my car whilst I have a meeting or an evening out, then drive home. In that context Superchargers, or in fact any sort of Rapid, are a "work around" for me.

Personally a Tesla owner's car park with 7kW chargers, near a tube station on the outskirts of London, would be ideal. I'd gladly put up with the Tube for the last few miles rather than driving and parking in central London.

What you are describing is not a workaround, superchargers were never meant for use in what you describe. They exist for charging from getting from 1 city to the next. Not in destination charging.

While it does not get as much press attention, Tesla is working on another charging network, not just a supercharger network:

Tesla Expanding Charging Network Beyond Superchargers - TESLARATI.com
 
What you are describing is not a workaround, superchargers were never meant for use in what you describe. They exist for charging from getting from 1 city to the next. Not in destination charging.

While it does not get as much press attention, Tesla is working on another charging network, not just a supercharger network:

Tesla Expanding Charging Network Beyond Superchargers - TESLARATI.com

it seems that this would be purely an American effort. since at least in Europe the onboard inlet is not propriatory as in the US. so both difficult and no real need to deploy your own private destination charger....