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German test claims 184 km range for P85+ in 75 mph !?!

Discussion in 'Model S' started by matbl, Sep 3, 2014.

  1. matbl

    matbl Member

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  2. bollar

    bollar Disgruntled Member

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    It looks like they're talking about performance in temperature extremes and in their test, range dropped to 184 km at -7C.

    Seems extreme to me, but I didn't look at the details of the TuV testing.
     
  3. yobigd20

    yobigd20 Well-Known Member

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    At 100mph cruise control in 0 degree weather you can still get 130 miles on a range charge. Don't ask me why I know this. :p so yes, their article is not accurate.
     
  4. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    #4 Saghost, Sep 3, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2014
    I might have misunderstood, but what I thought I read was that they created a digitized test sequence and then ran it in an atmosphere chamber on a dyno.

    If that's the case, they may have only run the sequence a couple times and projected the results - which would capture the car using resistance heat at the beginning but miss the way it transitions to heating things with motor waste heat on a longer cold drive.

    Just a theory about why their results are so different.
    Walter
     
  5. AMN

    AMN Member

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    We visit our relatives 170 miles (274km) away 4-5 times a year. Even when it's brutally cold (-10F/-22C) and with 3 adult passengers in the car, we can get over 170 miles of range while driving 75mph.

    I don't really care about how these rags rank cars and what they do to them to get that kind of range. The number they post is so off that I have to question that publication's integrity.
     
  6. islandbayy

    islandbayy Active Member

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    I've done 125 miles at 72mph at -30*F with a bit to spare. That heater got a workout though.
     
  7. Markus Barta

    Markus Barta New Member

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    The test is wrong highly "theoretical". The tester for the AMS magazine (Auto Motor Sport) only drove 31km and used bath math to calculate the 184km (besides several other mistakes made). The controversy rose as high that a well known scientist and futurologist (Lars Thomsen - details in german - Future_Matters_Die_Zukunftsmacher) offered them a € 120.000,- bet (His model X reservation) that those results were completely wrong. AMS accepted and then pulled back on accepting the bet. There was even a group of e-Mobility enthusiasts that organized a group event where they could prove that these AMS-results are wrong. All together AMS got a LOT of negative press even local news TV. By the way, all this is called now #AMSgate in german speaking social media channels.

    See details here (translated from german to english): Google Translate
     
  8. Dutchie

    Dutchie Member

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    Auto motor und Sport have been known to be very chauvinistic. German cars seems to be coming always on top of every test.
     
  9. magnet

    magnet Member

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    Here is the follow up where they say they did not wrong
    E-Auto-Härtetest: auto motor und sport unterstreicht harte Testmethoden - AUTO MOTOR UND SPORT

    "Addition, there was a further temperature-controlled laboratory testing at TÜV Süd at minus seven degrees, which also loads the battery power. "Such conditions exist in every winter and every summer, so that the readers of auto motor und sport want to know how the cars behave in such conditions, "said Bloch."

    We really need to know what temp the interior was set to and whether they started out with a cold battery. Also is the test done in a wind tunnel?
     
  10. beun

    beun Member

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    I read the article (in German) and their numbers just don't make any sense. Driving in Texas during the summer with air full on at a cruise speed of between 75 and 80mph (120-128 km/h) my average usage is below 300Wh/mile. with a full charge I should be able to get 85kWh / 300Wh/mile is 283 miles meaning at least the 265miles (425 km) that Tesla claims. I just don't understand how the Germans under similar conditions can claim only 342km of range.

    Their remark that after only one 'strong power output' (literal translation) the 0-100 time increases by 2 seconds is also something that I have never experienced. We all know the Tesla isn't a track car but at no time during regular spirited driving (euphemism for lead foot) have I noticed a reduced output power by half (their claim). I haven't driven in cold weather yet, and most likely never will, but I don't think those number will make much sense either.

    Their test is indeed a combination of a simulated route on a dyno and a real live drive.
     
  11. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Active Member

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    I drove 53 miles today at an average speed of 70-75 MPH, AC set to 72 and it was 103ºF outside. I averaged 255 Wh/mi.
     
  12. russman

    russman Member

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    I don't see how you guys are getting that such low wh/mi. I drive in mild temp California and my average is 330 and I seldom see under that, especially when doing freeway driving, and this is without spirited accelerations. 19" wheels, properly inflated, etc...

    I'd be curious to see if there is a chart out there that shows: % charge and resulting real distance driven at various wh/mi. And I understand each % charge is different as it goes down, but maybe a starting table, as my actual miles driven does not seem to add up and knowing that rated is now closer to 290 wh/mi vs 300 wh/mi, I'd love to know how far I could go on a full charge, 90% charge, 80% charge, etc...

    So for example:

    100% charge - 260 rated
    - 180 actual miles @ 360 wh/mi
    - 200 actual miles @ 340 wh/mi
    - 220 actual miles @ 320 wh/mi
    - etc

    90% charge - 240 rated
    - 160 actual miles @ 360 wh/mi
    - 190 actual miles @ 340 wh/mi
    - 200 actual miles @ 320 wh/mi
    - etc
     
  13. islandbayy

    islandbayy Active Member

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    Im in Wisconsin, and with Air Conditioning on, I can easilly hit 290-310 w/mi at 70-75mph. Just did it Monday Evening, with 400Lbs of tools in the frunk, a 80 lbs welder, 100lbs tank of argon, a weeks worth of groceries and Luggage in the trunk, Me, Great Grandpa, two midgets, and a carrier basket in my hitch (another 40 Lbs). Check your driving style.
     
  14. HyperMiler

    HyperMiler Member

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    Fully agree. They are located in Stuttgart, the home of Porsche, Mercedes Benz and many ICE parts manufacturers, and have been in this market for more than 70 years. It is a mutual dependency... .

    Regarding the chauvinism, one grain of salt is that our driving conditions are often different. We do beeline at > 100 mph for longer segments, 120 mph ist used by some as a travelling speed, conditions permitting. It is quite amazing how many vehicles have limitations at that speed, being it noise, fuel, reliability, road holding. It is a harsh environment in that respect. Most American manufacturers have all but given up on the higher speed (which has made their cars neither safer nor more frugal), and the Asian manufacturers often compromise towards a softer setting. Tesla, on the other hand, is a brilliant example that "there is no ailment in this industry that a good product cannot cure".

    And yes, there is a certain predisposition towards liking the style of the local manufacturers... . They (AMS) have favorably reviewed the Model S on multiple occasions in the past.

    That said, the article in question is horrible. Reminds me of the episode with the NY Times.



     
  15. Mayhemm

    Mayhemm Model S P85+ "Lola"

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    #15 Mayhemm, Sep 6, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2014
    Wouldn't this be more "nationalistic" than chauvinistic?
     
  16. HyperMiler

    HyperMiler Member

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    No.

    They like premium ICE cars with good performance on the autobahn and in twisty turns, e.g. the Corvette,
    and rated Model S higher than the Panamera.

    So no mayhem... .:rolleyes:
     
  17. scriptacus

    scriptacus Member

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    Isn't Wisconsin flat? Depending on where you live California has a lot of hills. The 7 mile section of the 405 I drive every day takes 620 Wh/mile at 55mph in 80 degree weather. If do 45-55 for my commute (23 miles to work and back) in perfect weather the best I can get is about 335 Wh/mile.

    TLDR; it may not be driving style at all.
     
  18. islandbayy

    islandbayy Active Member

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    That's a big heck no on flat :) not mountains but lots and lots of hills. Nebraska is flat ;-)
     
  19. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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    Chauvinism' original meaning refers to excessive patriotism, which I think is appropriate in this case, since he was saying that they'd be biased towards German cars.
     
  20. swaltner

    swaltner Member

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    OT, but I always thought it was Kansas that was flat, even with research proving that it is flatter than a pancake... :)

    Improbable Research
     

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