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Germany Rules on Using Tesla Screen Wiper Controls

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He's talking about changing the function for 3 seconds only. I think most of us can live without the volume control for that long.

I've had the car for a year now, so I'm good at controlling the wipers and everything else. But I did struggle the first few days. For example, I went in a car wash the first week and the auto wipers came on. In my rush to shut them off, I touched the trunk open button, and went through the wash with it open.

Vines suggestion is excellent and trivial to implement. Tesla should do it immediately!!

Exactly, context sensitive menus are like the ones that pop up in your program, but only once you have a cell highlighted and hover over it for a few seconds.

I am only saying to change the behavior of the left scroll wheel for 3 seconds after any press of the wiper button, then afterwards if the left scroll wheel is not touched, it reverts back to its normal function.

This is actually possible with many controls, including hvac, advanced stereo, and even the entire menu tree for the drive functions.

"Context Sensitive menus" should be an option, so those that hate it don't use it.
Perhaps you can additionally choose which menus you like context sensitive
wiper y/n
hvac y/n
music y/n
Drive Menu tree y/n
 
STOP!

Using the scroll wheel is a bad idea. Mixing functionality is a mess. That is not intuitive.
There is already a DEDICATED mechanical switch for wiper control. They just need to make it able to switch wiper modes (speeds and auto). This is a simple Software fix. You press the wiper instant wipe switch quickly and then can change the mode by additional presses within a prescribed time. Simple. Intuitive. No different than a rotary old school ICE wiper switch. It’s a finger press instead of wrist rotation to change modes.

Screwing with the scroll wheels is a horrible idea.
 
STOP!

Using the scroll wheel is a bad idea. Mixing functionality is a mess. That is not intuitive.
There is already a DEDICATED mechanical switch for wiper control. They just need to make it able to switch wiper modes (speeds and auto). This is a simple Software fix. You press the wiper instant wipe switch quickly and then can change the mode by additional presses within a prescribed time. Simple. Intuitive. No different than a rotary old school ICE wiper switch. It’s a finger press instead of wrist rotation to change modes.

Screwing with the scroll wheels is a horrible idea.

Adding an optional menu setting that changes scroll wheel behaviors is a terrible idea? Clearly you feel strongly about it, hey its optional. Others seem to like the option. Software is nice like that.

Don't like it, don't use it, but each scroll wheel has 4 way directional control, and much of the time is totally unused. I personally find it tedious when looking through music or drive menus that I have to reach out and touch a particular button as the bumps in the road make my hand unsteady. If I had a "Highlight and select" type interface, driven by the scroll wheels on command I could much easier change my driving mode to sport for instance, or regen to low.

Its the car of the future, it doesn't have to follow all the rules of the past.
 
The S/X already offer multiple functions for the scroll wheel- including temp, fan speed, phonebook stuff, etc... and I wish the 3 did as well.

Shouldn't be any reason they can't let you basically map all the wheel functions to whatever you want- and do it per user profile too- just like key mapping on a PC.
 
"Tesla's wiper controls through its touchscreen have been ruled illegal in Germany "

I wish that journalists would just do their damn job correctly and research (or translate) that court-statement correctly.

No, Tela wipers haven't been banned. No, the touchscreen wasn't banned. The court just declared that the Touchscreen is just another electronic device in your car, just like your mobile, or radio. And as such you are in charge to use that devices only if you're in a save driving mode. Looking for ten seconds on your mobile is just as dangerous as fiddling on your touchscreen for 10 seconds. And that was the courts decision: Of course you can stil use any touchscreen in your Porsche, Audi, Mercedes or Tesla, as long as you're not distracted from save driving.
Again: there was no Tesla-specific ban in that court's decision; this was just made up by german stupid ICE-powered journalists.
 
Adding an optional menu setting that changes scroll wheel behaviors is a terrible idea? Clearly you feel strongly about it, hey its optional. Others seem to like the option. Software is nice like that.

Don't like it, don't use it, but each scroll wheel has 4 way directional control, and much of the time is totally unused. I personally find it tedious when looking through music or drive menus that I have to reach out and touch a particular button as the bumps in the road make my hand unsteady. If I had a "Highlight and select" type interface, driven by the scroll wheels on command I could much easier change my driving mode to sport for instance, or regen to low.

Its the car of the future, it doesn't have to follow all the rules of the past.

I realize you want some credit with this idea but it is a bad idea. Sorry I’m not trying to be rude but there are better ways to address this. I didn’t mean to be so harsh so my apologies. But yes I do have a strong opinion.

Again there is already a dedicated electromechanical switch for wiper control.

Let me repeat. There is already a dedicated electromechanical switch for wiper control.

Think about that.

One of the worst things Tesla could do is mix inputs from multiple electromechanical devices to control what is definitely a critical function of the vehicle.

They have voice control and touch screen input already for wiper control. Plus one single and dedicated mechanical input. That is all they need.

It’s an evolutionary software update to add the ability to cycle thru the wiper speeds with the same switch that is already dedicated to the wiper.

I am an engineer. I have worked in the nuclear industry where human factors are an incredibly important consideration for machine and reactor control. My current job I have dealt with software displays for control of safety systems in large machines. Trust me, Tesla will make the right call on this. Their consideration of human factors engineering, contrary to popular belief, has been excellent. Their display modality is the best in the industry. I know their approach on the model3 has been criticized, but overall it’s been a revolutionary change and a wake up call to the industry.

One of the considerations in control of critical functions of a machine are executing a thorough risk analysis and failure mode effects analysis which in this case must involve human factors. Providing different control schemes for critical vehicle functions always lights up a risk analysis. So the three INDEPENDENT operator command input methods are good. This is ok. They are independent of each other and that is acceptable. Now when one of those independent input control methods is no longer independent the risk for operator confusion goes way up. This will show up in a risk analysis and should be abandoned unless there are other important contrary requirements. Operator confusion with control schemes is a big issue. A software switch to change this function I don’t think will happen. There is not a good argument for it.

Now, Tesla is doing this for other aspects of the vehicle. And critical safety related systems at that! The three way option for drivetrain functionality, creep, roll, and one pedal driving. I am sure there was tremendous debate and evaluation to get approval to provide these options. However, here the argument is complex where drivers of previous generation of cars are looking for the same vehicle response from operator commands (creep analogous to automatic transmission, roll analogous to a manual transmission, and one pedal control being the next generation of control of the vehicle). This is a different situation where strong CCRs (critical customer requirements) drive higher risk options to the customer. Most of us love the one pedal driving but my wife refuses to use it because it is so different than her Acura RDX that inherently creeps. She is afraid of being confused because she drives both cars regularly. I on the other hand love the one pedal option and am willing to take the chance when I drive the Roadster or the Acura. Both creep. So, this is an argument for providing a different schema for individual operators. A risk analysis in this case could go both ways. CCRs not being met can affect acceptance and overall sales of the vehicle so they win out.

So yes this is a wiper system. Not steering or braking or drivetrain control. So a lower risk system in the vehicle. But higher risk than say the radio in the car. I’m not trying to be over the top but it still must be dealt with carefully.
 
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I wish that journalists would just do their damn job correctly and research (or translate) that court-statement correctly.

No, Tela wipers haven't been banned. No, the touchscreen wasn't banned. The court just declared that the Touchscreen is just another electronic device in your car, just like your mobile, or radio. And as such you are in charge to use that devices only if you're in a save driving mode. Looking for ten seconds on your mobile is just as dangerous as fiddling on your touchscreen for 10 seconds. And that was the courts decision: Of course you can stil use any touchscreen in your Porsche, Audi, Mercedes or Tesla, as long as you're not distracted from save driving.
Again: there was no Tesla-specific ban in that court's decision; this was just made up by german stupid ICE-powered journalists.

Thanks for this. To be fair, I think the detail was mostly reported correctly in the UK press at least, but as usual the headlines were often misleading clickbait (it's the same both sides of the pond unfortunately). If the mechanism was illegal then that would probably mean all Teslas would be illegal, and that can't be true or they wouldn't have EU type approval, so it wouldn't make sense for that to be true :)

There is an issue IMHO if the wiper sensitivity can't be controlled from the stalk (sorry, I get my first Tesla in a few days so I don't have any personal experience). I definitely wouldn't want to be going to the screen to change that on the fly, BUT if I didn't know where the setting was to change it safely while driving, I would use manual wipes until either I got where I was going or found a safe place to pull over and make a change. This is what the court was really saying I think.

Agree with Rotarypower that this should be fixed in the stalk behavior and there are several ways that could be achieved with existing hardware. Wipers are a secondary system but still a safety system so I'm sure they will fix this (and they can with over-the-air updates!).

Looking forward to getting some personal experience real soon to base my ramblings on ;)
 
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I realize you want some credit with this idea but it is a bad idea. Sorry I’m not trying to be rude but there are better ways to address this. I didn’t mean to be so harsh so my apologies. But yes I do have a strong opinion.

(...)

So yes this is a wiper system. Not steering or braking or drivetrain control. So a lower risk system in the vehicle. But higher risk than say the radio in the car. I’m not trying to be over the top but it still must be dealt with carefully.

While you make good points here, it's clear that the original setup with the single electromechanical control is deeply flawed. The wipers are a safety-critical system, and controls have (to varying extents) been informally standardized across the industry – whether moving a stalk up or down or twisting a ring on a stalk, both can be done by touch without taking one's eyes off the road.

Much like with horns and hazard lights, there are certain minimum requirements for safe operation of a moving vehicle. Reducing an essential safety function that maintains the driver's awareness of road conditions in inclement weather to a single "courtesy wipe" button was a terrible design choice, and one that's frustrating enough on the rare occasion I see rain here in San Diego. Had I been back on the east coast where I learned to drive with its constantly changing weather and sudden downpours, this design choice would have led me to seriously consider trading in the car.

Under no circumstances do I want to be looking away to press the correct small area on a touchscreen out of my sightline while moving to adjust wiper controls. This should have been a physical control that could be adjusted without taking one's eyes off of the road, as with every other modern vehicle.

Another example of simplifying for simplicity's sake, and making the final product worse for it.
 
I realize you want some credit with this idea but it is a bad idea. Sorry I’m not trying to be rude but there are better ways to address this. I didn’t mean to be so harsh so my apologies. But yes I do have a strong opinion.

Again there is already a dedicated electromechanical switch for wiper control.

Let me repeat. There is already a dedicated electromechanical switch for wiper control.

Think about that.

One of the worst things Tesla could do is mix inputs from multiple electromechanical devices to control what is definitely a critical function of the vehicle.

They have voice control and touch screen input already for wiper control. Plus one single and dedicated mechanical input. That is all they need.

It’s an evolutionary software update to add the ability to cycle thru the wiper speeds with the same switch that is already dedicated to the wiper.

I am an engineer. I have worked in the nuclear industry where human factors are an incredibly important consideration for machine and reactor control. My current job I have dealt with software displays for control of safety systems in large machines. Trust me, Tesla will make the right call on this. Their consideration of human factors engineering, contrary to popular belief, has been excellent. Their display modality is the best in the industry. I know their approach on the model3 has been criticized, but overall it’s been a revolutionary change and a wake up call to the industry.

One of the considerations in control of critical functions of a machine are executing a thorough risk analysis and failure mode effects analysis which in this case must involve human factors. Providing different control schemes for critical vehicle functions always lights up a risk analysis. So the three INDEPENDENT operator command input methods are good. This is ok. They are independent of each other and that is acceptable. Now when one of those independent input control methods is no longer independent the risk for operator confusion goes way up. This will show up in a risk analysis and should be abandoned unless there are other important contrary requirements. Operator confusion with control schemes is a big issue. A software switch to change this function I don’t think will happen. There is not a good argument for it.

Now, Tesla is doing this for other aspects of the vehicle. And critical safety related systems at that! The three way option for drivetrain functionality, creep, roll, and one pedal driving. I am sure there was tremendous debate and evaluation to get approval to provide these options. However, here the argument is complex where drivers of previous generation of cars are looking for the same vehicle response from operator commands (creep analogous to automatic transmission, roll analogous to a manual transmission, and one pedal control being the next generation of control of the vehicle). This is a different situation where strong CCRs (critical customer requirements) drive higher risk options to the customer. Most of us love the one pedal driving but my wife refuses to use it because it is so different than her Acura RDX that inherently creeps. She is afraid of being confused because she drives both cars regularly. I on the other hand love the one pedal option and am willing to take the chance when I drive the Roadster or the Acura. Both creep. So, this is an argument for providing a different schema for individual operators. A risk analysis in this case could go both ways. CCRs not being met can affect acceptance and overall sales of the vehicle so they win out.

So yes this is a wiper system. Not steering or braking or drivetrain control. So a lower risk system in the vehicle. But higher risk than say the radio in the car. I’m not trying to be over the top but it still must be dealt with carefully.


Lets lay it down more clearly:

The safety-critical requirement is already met: a single press allows a wipe.

What follows is a matter of convenience.

For a user to multi-press the same button (your proposal) to cycle from speed 4 to speed 3, requires 11 presses in succession. 1 press to activate mode, and 5x2 presses to cycle through speeds auto, off, 1, 2, and to 3.

And if you accidentally over press and get back to 4? Whoops, another 10 more.

There is nothing practical or superior about this proposal.
 
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Lets lay it down more clearly:

The safety-critical requirement is already met: a single press allows a wipe.

What follows is a matter of convenience.

For a user to multi-press the same button (your proposal) to cycle from speed 4 to speed 3, requires 11 presses in succession. 1 press to activate mode, and 5x2 presses to cycle through speeds auto, off, 1, 2, and to 3.

And if you accidentally over press and get back to 4? Whoops, another 10 more.

There is nothing practical or superior about this proposal.
That's a really inefficient implementation.

From wiper off:
Single click: single wipe
Double click: fast continuous
Tripple click: slow continuous

From any operational mode:
Single click: off
Double click: fast continuous
Tripple click: slow continuous
 
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......

I had many situations in heavy thunderstorms rain on a German Autobahn were to switch AP on if it wasn't already was the best and safest option to start with.

Works perfectly fine. Try it!..

First of all the accident happened on a Bundesstraße, not on an Autobahn. Then I am seriously concerned that people are barrelling down the motorway in a heavy downpour with a half baked system in charge and they believe that this is safe.
 
I have a hard time believing that someone could end up in the ditch while changing the wiper speed. However, if I ended up in the ditch while it is raining I would probably not want to admit that I was browsing the internet and instead come up with something more acceptable such as the windshield wiper story.

Is it a fact that the driver was adjusting his windshield wiper speed? Did they pull the car logs or is that just his version of what happened?
 
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I'll accept the "they should just use AP" when all of the following are true:
  • AP works great in rainy conditions for all vehicles. (It doesn't. Tesla doesn't even care that mine hugs left and crosses lines. "Within spec". And rain? Heck no.)
  • AP is designed for everywhere you would use wipers. (You can't simultaneously state "uh duh, it's designed for US interstates not your curvy mountain highways" and also claim it's a perfect substitute for a human in adverse conditions on the same roads).
  • AP is recommended for use in adverse conditions. Currently, the manual rightly states you should not do this.
  • AP ships with all Tesla vehicles and is added to every previous vehicle (some people still buy Model 3 without any sort of AP)
I didn't think my opinion would turn into an unpopular one accompanied with a borderline victim blaming session.

The only valid suggestion without far more detail than we have is the driver could have pressed the button for a momentary wipe. Maybe they were even doing that, but wanted to stop doing so and thus were trying to change the speed. Having been through a sudden rain event, it gets really distracting to have to constantly press that on a busy highway in a downpour, trying to find a "safer" time to not look at the road. Pulling over isn't always safer either. It might be even harder, the shoulder might be lacking, or due to poor visibility you might end up causing accidents via being rear-ended. Trudging along is often the safest option for many people, however scary it may be.

Unreliable voice controls are not a universal solution. AP (a beta software option designed only for highway use in good conditions) is not a universal solution. Physical controls is a probably pretty good solution, and has existed for years.

I have a hard time believing that someone could end up in the ditch while changing the wiper speed. However, if I ended up in the ditch while it is raining I would probably not want to admit that I was browsing the internet and instead come up with something more acceptable such as the windshield wiper story.

Is it a fact that the driver was adjusting his windshield wiper speed? Did they pull the car logs or is that just his version of what happened?
I don't know the answer to your question, but to me this is pretty easy to believe. The on-screen wiper controls are an extreme angle away from the windshield. I don't need to wear glasses or anything, but my "perfect" vision can't switch focus and angle that fast while processing everything correctly (whether it be targeting the right wiper button or one of many things I need to see on the road).

Besides that, this is corroborated by a vast amount of research in phone use while driving. Those split second looks to the phone are shockingly bad between literally not looking at the road and the context switching.
 
I love the idea of double or triple tapping the wiper stalk as well, another good option. I'm honestly not feeling as strongly about the way it happens as some. I just want working wipers. I would leave them on auto but then they seem to trigger at weird intervals on totally dry glass.

I regularly lose cell connection and am unable to execute voice commands. Saying that they are the best plan is ignoring the reality of connectivity in our age.
 
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