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Germany to Allow Lv4 autonomy

Cardo

Member
Sep 22, 2020
471
322
Surrey, UK
Nice. The UK won’t want to be left behind, especially after Brexit, so hopefully they’ll be loosening up the restrictions. However, bearing in mind how cautious they’ve been with the introduction of e-scooters, I do find our government tends to be all talk, no trousers.
 
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Durzel

Active Member
Jul 17, 2019
3,433
2,399
Bath, UK
How does that decision square with Germany adhering to the UNECE (or not?).

Why can't we make these kinds of decisions? Dag nammit!
 

Cnixon

Member
Mar 5, 2020
461
139
Basingstoke
They obviously think VAG BMW Mercedes old men can play with the American upstart. Good luck to them they were holding back the EU a couple of months ago.
 

nxsynjs

Member
Jul 5, 2020
268
214
UK

Tony Hoyle

Active Member
May 7, 2019
1,111
674
Stockport, UK
How does that decision square with Germany adhering to the UNECE (or not?).

Why can't we make these kinds of decisions? Dag nammit!

The source says germany are working with UNECE to update their rules. They (along with Japan) were the countries that came up with the rules the UK adopted recently (37mph on divided roads).. so they're ahead of the curve.

It's still defined areas though - although I haven't seen the text, maybe you could define the entire country as a defined area). Probably irrelevant to Tesla at the moment.

Nothing to stop a country going beyond UNECE.. heck the US are members and don't implement much of it at all... it's just a lot harder to do than simply handwaving the existing stuff into law.
 

nxsynjs

Member
Jul 5, 2020
268
214
UK
Maybe they were impressed with the mobileye Munich autonomous demo..

Being tin foil hatted, it might also be to do with the increased amount of German EV's and cars with lane keeping, and automation functionality. Also, if one assumes politicians tend to be self serving, Grant Schapps has a Tesla M3 with FSD so perhaps he's fed up with it also :)
 

MrJaffro

Member
Oct 7, 2020
37
16
London
Grant Schapps has a Tesla M3 with FSD so perhaps he's fed up with it also

This is probably the only thing that gives me any hope of UK pushing forwards in this area. One man on a mission to make the most of his big toy. Haha

Whatever happens after this autonomous vehicle consultation thing in March. You can be sure it'll take a while before we see any benefit in our cars.
 

nxsynjs

Member
Jul 5, 2020
268
214
UK
This is probably the only thing that gives me any hope of UK pushing forwards in this area. One man on a mission to make the most of his big toy. Haha

Whatever happens after this autonomous vehicle consultation thing in March. You can be sure it'll take a while before we see any benefit in our cars.

Yeah, they will still need to code software and test the parameters before it'll come into effect. I doubt very much if they will have a "make it like America" setting.. Mind you.. even changing the time out for the hands on wheel and max steering angle would be a huge help.
 

JupiterMan

Member
Aug 7, 2019
525
554
Hertfordshire, UK
I've found this UK Law Commission document, which suggests UK adopting its own domestic rules on self driving systems, with manufacturers choosing approval either through UNECE or through UK domestic approval. Final paper to be released Q4 2021

see the various papers linked here for the Consultation paper No. 3:
Automated Vehicles | Law Commission

This appears to be running parallel to changes in UNECE rules on Automated Lane Keeping Systems... Not had time to read it through but from what I can see this could enable US style FSD, and even RoboTaxis.....?
 

nxsynjs

Member
Jul 5, 2020
268
214
UK
This appears to be running parallel to changes in UNECE rules on Automated Lane Keeping Systems... Not had time to read it through but from what I can see this could enable US style FSD, and even RoboTaxis.....?

Just in time for me to use my FSD for about a week before I have to swap the car.. :p
 
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Edders

New Member
Jan 20, 2021
4
1
UK
These things will always take longer than expected, for me the best news is that its being discussed as getting these things started can take longer then the ratification of new rules

fingers crossed but its all a step-in the right direction

Mike
 

Durzel

Active Member
Jul 17, 2019
3,433
2,399
Bath, UK
According to Reddit and someone who delved into the articles themselves, this draft law is actually talking about level 3 autonomy, not 4.

They have said that a human will need to remain present etc which as far as I understand it equals level 3.

Still, at least it’s a positive step.
 
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Cardo

Member
Sep 22, 2020
471
322
Surrey, UK
According to Reddit and someone who delved into the articles themselves, this draft law is actually talking about level 3 autonomy, not 4.

They have said that a human will need to remain present etc which as far as I understand it equals level 3.

Still, at least it’s a positive step.
Only level 5 allows for no human.
Level 4 is “mind off”.
Level 3 is “hands off”.
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,623
6,394
Snohomish, WA
According to Reddit and someone who delved into the articles themselves, this draft law is actually talking about level 3 autonomy, not 4.

They have said that a human will need to remain present etc which as far as I understand it equals level 3.

Still, at least it’s a positive step.

I was scratching my head on L4 + needing a driver present.

L3 makes a heck of a lot more sense.

I'll have to delve into the articles to see what kinds of speeds will be allowed. If it's only traffic assist then its not all that exciting.
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,623
6,394
Snohomish, WA
Only level 5 allows for no human.
Level 4 is “mind off”.
Level 3 is “hands off”.

L4 allows for no human.

Like there is no human in Waymo L4 vehicles. There are remote humans that can send instructions to the vehicle in case of issues.

The separation between L4 and L5 is really about operating domain in both areas of operation, and weather.

I imagine all L4 vehicles will have some kind of back end cloud based operators to handle situations like if humans surrounded the vehicle for example.
 
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Cardo

Member
Sep 22, 2020
471
322
Surrey, UK
L4 allows for no human.

Like there is no human in Waymo L4 vehicles. There are remote humans that can send instructions to the vehicle in case of issues.

The separation between L4 and L5 is really about operating domain in both areas of operation, and weather.

I imagine all L4 vehicles will have some kind of back end cloud based operators to handle situations like if humans surrounded the vehicle for example.
Level 4 does still require a human in some form to be available to take over.

Only level 5 is truly “driverless”, which I don’t think we’ll see for a very long time.
 

JupiterMan

Member
Aug 7, 2019
525
554
Hertfordshire, UK
According to Reddit and someone who delved into the articles themselves, this draft law is actually talking about level 3 autonomy, not 4

I don't think that's right, having had a look through some of it, there are considerations there for cars which have no drivers at all in the vehicle, it is referred to in the consultation as NUIC - "No User in Charge".

Separately it also considers where there is a "user in charge", who has activated self driving, their use of entertainment systems at that time, so certainly higher than level 3.

It also goes into the insurance implications as to who is liable under what circumstances, they give an example of a a car turning onto a one way street the wrong way, the driver then taking control and subsequently being stopped by police - should he be liable? as he is the User in Control at that time and driving the wrong way.

Whether this is just the legal framework to allow this in the future, or a more imminent rule change to allow this soon, I'm not so sure.
 

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