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Germany will require electric vehicle charging at every gas station

SammichLover

Banned
Dec 8, 2018
2,618
1,542
Yup
Why ever would I want to locate myself next to something so toxic and flammable as a collection of fuel pumps?


On a less playful note; I tried drilling down the links and couldn't figure out what kind of "chargers" these are. However parts of the Reuters article suggest to me that these are intended to be, or at least allowed to be, L2 chargers. That's the suck, and lends a lot more credibility to my pithy first sentence. A bunch of compliance L2 chargers might grease a few people past the irrational range anxiety but only with more ignorance coupled with pitching and re-enforcing the expectations of driving a BEV = poor experience of sitting around for a couple hours in a crappy location.
 

SomeJoe7777

Marginally-Known Member
Mar 28, 2015
2,174
5,601
Houston, TX
I'm not sure it's necessary. Most EV owners charge at home, and those who don't right now (apartment / condo / etc.) will be able to at some point when their property installs them.

With 90+% of charging happening at home, what we need are superchargers (or non-Tesla equivalent fast DC chargers) for inter-city travel, and urban superchargers (and non-Tesla equivalent fast DC chargers) for multiple intra-city trips. The urban superchargers are what will replace the gas stations, but I think you need far fewer of them than gas stations since the majority of cars will not need to use them, as they've charged at home. Furthermore, to reduce cost from an infrastructure perspective, you need to group them together. You need like 10-20 urban chargers at a single location that replaces the 100-200 gas pumps in the same local area. You don't need every gas station to have a charger/chargers.
 

Webeevdrivers

Active Member
Jan 2, 2017
2,248
3,956
Canada
DCFC chargers are getting more common in gas stations in Canada. Both Petrocan and Canadian tire are both putting in multiple DCFC chargers at some of their stations.
 

TX_M3P+

Member
Mar 6, 2020
559
388
Austin, TX
This law seems to be written by someone who hasn’t ever driven an EV.... these would never be used...level two chargers at parking garages makes a lot of sense... at gas stations not so much.
There are a lot of places where superchargers are not available and many of the L2 chargers are destination chargers, meaning you have to eat at that restaurant or you have to stay in that hotel. Having L2 chargers at gas stations means you can charge whenever you need it, not just when you want to eat or sleep for the night. This could come in very handy for long road trips where you just need an extra bump to get to the next supercharger.
 
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SammichLover

Banned
Dec 8, 2018
2,618
1,542
Yup
Having L2 chargers at gas stations means you can charge whenever you need it...
And nobody else has also decided that to be true at this address in the last couple hours. And you're cool with hanging out there for a couple of hours waiting.

As someone mentioned above, gas station real estate footprints aren't designed for slow EV charging. They're more intended to be 10 minutes max and done. That's how things are set up around them, that's the sort of room they have on their property.

Now if the requirement includes say 100kW rate or higher, that's a lot more realistic to be usable. ((Sorry North American Chademo, you aren't really viable L3 once there's a real amount of BEVs on the road. You're more like beefy L2. ))
 
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TX_M3P+

Member
Mar 6, 2020
559
388
Austin, TX
Wouldn’t it be better to just build more super chargers though, so that they are available every 100 miles?
For Tesla owners, yes, for sure! But for all EV owners, not at all. The idea is to encourage EV growth overall not just make it better for current Tesla owners. But as a Tesla owner, more Supercharging stations plus all gas stations with L2 equates to a lot of piece of mind. I don't think adding L2 chargers to all gas stations would result in Elon backing off on opening more Supercharging station, since these are a direct benefit of Tesla ownership.
 
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Eno Deb

Active Member
Aug 17, 2018
2,604
3,158
SF Bay Area
On a less playful note; I tried drilling down the links and couldn't figure out what kind of "chargers" these are. However parts of the Reuters article suggest to me that these are intended to be, or at least allowed to be, L2 chargers. That's the suck, and lends a lot more credibility to my pithy first sentence. A bunch of compliance L2 chargers might grease a few people past the irrational range anxiety but only with more ignorance coupled with pitching and re-enforcing the expectations of driving a BEV = poor experience of sitting around for a couple hours in a crappy location.
The intention is actually to get the gas stations to install DC fast chargers ("Schnellladesaeulen" in german). As an incentive and to make it financially feasible for the stations, the oil companies will be able claim "decarbonisation" credits for the chargers.

This proposal isn't new and is actually part of a larger "Masterplan" to build out the charging infrastructure in the country. The plan is described here (in german):

BMVI - Masterplan Ladeinfrastruktur der Bundesregierung
 

SammichLover

Banned
Dec 8, 2018
2,618
1,542
Yup
The intention is actually to get the gas stations to install DC fast chargers ("Schnellladesaulen" in german). As an incentive and to make it financially feasible for the stations, the oil companies will be able claim "decarbonisation" credits for the chargers.

This proposal isn't new and is actually part of a larger "Masterplan" to build out the charging infrastructure in the country. The plan is described here (in german):

BMVI - Masterplan Ladeinfrastruktur der Bundesregierung
The Reuters article mentioned that plan, I believe. But they gave a number of 7,000 fast chargers and 70,000 L2 as the targets. That didn't give me the warm fuzzies that this was for fast chargers [only] given that the number I'm digging up says there's twice that number of gas stations in Germany (just under 15,000) compared to that purported fast charger target. EDIT: I guess this could represent a very aggressive raising of the fast charger target?

What output is required to be a "fast charger"? Is it just synonymous for providing a supply DC for native charging, regardless of rate? I guess I should keep in mind that maybe 50kW might actually mean something in Germany, at least for commuter type vehicles, as it seems lower battery capacity is more widely feasible there.

P.S. Thanks for the like though I don't read German.
 

Casmium

Member
Sep 14, 2018
324
328
Mississauga
Why ever would I want to locate myself next to something so toxic and flammable as a collection of fuel pumps?


On a less playful note; I tried drilling down the links and couldn't figure out what kind of "chargers" these are. However parts of the Reuters article suggest to me that these are intended to be, or at least allowed to be, L2 chargers. That's the suck, and lends a lot more credibility to my pithy first sentence. A bunch of compliance L2 chargers might grease a few people past the irrational range anxiety but only with more ignorance coupled with pitching and re-enforcing the expectations of driving a BEV = poor experience of sitting around for a couple hours in a crappy location.

Its been mentioned many times that when people run out of battery it's usually either close to home or a charging station, if there was a LVL 2 charger at every gas station, even at 6.6kw/h it would usually mean a 10-15 min stop to top off before continuing home or to a LVL 3
 
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Matsayz

Active Member
Jul 6, 2019
1,095
803
Las Vegas
And remember this is Germany, it’s not a HUGE country like the U.S. you can cross Germany in like 10hrs or less. Most people would be fine to park the car for a couple hours outside the town square while they shop or eat.

It’s a very different lifestyle there and cars/licenses are legit big costs hence public transport is everywhere.
 
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SMAlset

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2017
8,964
9,595
SF Bay Area
I think a lot depends on the battery size. Many EVs are very short range and especially true of the hybrids. Charging them for intercity driving wouldn’t take much time but hard to imagine gas stations having the room to park cars for L2 charging all the same for a period of time. Can’t imagine they would be in favor of that. I think Tesla’s approach to locate urban chargers at shopping center lots makes the most sense.
 

1.21GW

Member
Jul 23, 2018
739
1,185
Michigan
Level 2 charging at gas stations is a stupid idea. It may be helpful in emergencies, but no one is going to hang at the gas station for a few hours..

level 2 should be located near places people park for long periods

fast charging should be near main roads and highways

gas stations are irrelevant to the conversation
 

toolman335

Member
Oct 3, 2019
842
593
Rochester
When this law comes to the US it will come down to forcing gas stations to provide an electrical outlet so we can plug in with an L1 charger.
All you have to do is hang at the gas station for 24 hours and you can make it home!
 

one2many

Member
Aug 16, 2019
572
744
germany
OK, in Germany we have a good coverage on most of the autobahn. Most
of the gas stations are about 70 miles apart, have two fast chargers (50kw)
for the 3 standards. The first order of the law is to get full coverage of
the missing autobahn gas stations. I did drive a 24kwh leaf and it can get
very tight on colder days so have some backup stations is not a bad idea.
Tesla superchargers have some coverage, could be better but with the range
we have most of it is doable. We drive very fast here so we use lots of charge.
Most towns have L2 around as well as different stores, some even fast chargers.
When it gets hot here you will see people at the chargers running the A/C just
sitting in the cars. The of the point of the new law is ICE is dead and no longer
supported !!!
 
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