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Getting billed for using a normal looking wall connector?

M3BlueGeorgia

Active Member
Dec 10, 2018
1,385
1,087
Atlanta, GA
Part of it is ignorance and confusion on my part. I'm a new Tesla owner. I see the wall connector in the Tesla shop for people to buy for their homes.
It never crossed my mind that this same unit could be turned into auto-billable charger. Really, these chargers should require a red face plate and/or one that says "destination charger" - before the billing feature can be turned on.

Anyway, if I just went in there one time and got charged, okay, shady, but I could have been more careful.
However, there was no billing for a minimum of 3 months. I have no idea how long the wall connectors were there before then.

Thus they long established an expectation of free charging for guest parking.
To suddenly change to no-notification no-consent automatic billing should be illegal. And that Tesla enables this, is crazy.

Tesla doesn't have any idea whether the property owner out up a sign saying this electricity isn't free.

The issue appears you expected free electricity and were surprised to have to pay for it. You were charged a fairly trivial amount, so you weren't price gouged.

Tesla are trying to get more of these chargers installed, which IMHO is a GOOD thing, and allowing the property owner to charge for electricity helps that.
 

kayak1

Member
Jan 21, 2020
134
77
USA, The great state of Maine
What if a non-Tesla EV using a TeslaTap/Tesla-to-j1772 adapter plugged into this HPWC?
It's part of building more of a walled garden. I suspect that the TeslaTap adapter will not work for places that bill for the use.
In the GEN3 config one can disable the ability to have non Teslas charge. WIth the GEN2 I think that it was a dip switch setting.
 

swaltner

Active Member
Oct 13, 2012
1,614
1,634
Kansas, USA
I haven’t personally come across these before, but this capability of doing billing on Destination Chargers was “announced” nine months ago.

 

Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
6,406
7,564
Boise, ID
I haven’t personally come across these before, but this capability of doing billing on Destination Chargers was “announced” nine months ago.
And that article was just posted six comments above yours too.

I do think a lot of people knew when these were deployed with wi-fi capability and that article came out that this was something that probably would be coming in the future. I think the part that is a bit contentious is how it could be done like this, with surprise billing after the fact, with no notice or confirmation on the car's screen. That would seem to be necessary by many state laws.
 

quantumslip

Member
Mar 3, 2015
483
517
Earth
And that article was just posted six comments above yours too.

I do think a lot of people knew when these were deployed with wi-fi capability and that article came out that this was something that probably would be coming in the future. I think the part that is a bit contentious is how it could be done like this, with surprise billing after the fact, with no notice or confirmation on the car's screen. That would seem to be necessary by many state laws.

California specifically has laws regarding the pricing of EV charging and displaying it as such. What isn't clear to me in this situation is when the stations were installed and if these stations fall under commercial use (I would also imagine those installed for private business use only like at a truck depot would be exempted). IANAL so here's the text:


A.1.1. Effective Date for AC EVSE. - All AC EVSE used for commercial purposes shall comply with all requirements of this article in accordance with the following:
(a) All AC EVSE installed prior to January 1, 2021, shall comply with the requirements of this article by January 1, 2031.
(b) All AC EVSE installed on or after January 1, 2021, shall comply with the requirements of this article upon installation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
S.2.4.1. Unit Price. - An EVSE shall be able to indicate on each face the unit price at which the EVSE is set to compute or to dispense at any point in time during a transaction. A computing EVSE shall display the unit price in whole cents (e.g., $0.12) or tenths of one cent (e.g., $0.119) on the basis of price per megajoule (MJ) or kilowatt-hour (kWh). In cases where the electrical energy is unlimited or free of charge, this fact shall be clearly indicated in place of the unit price.
S.2.4.2. Equipment Capacity and Type of Voltage. - An EVSE shall be able to conspicuously display on each face the maximum rate of energy transfer (i.e., maximum power) and the type of current associated with each unit price offered (e.g., 7 kW AC, 25 kW DC, etc.).
S.2.7. Indication of Delivery. - The EVSE shall automatically display on its face the initial zero condition and the quantity delivered (up to the capacity of the indicating elements).

On a side note, this makes me wonder what is happening for new supercharger installations...
 
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M3BlueGeorgia

Active Member
Dec 10, 2018
1,385
1,087
Atlanta, GA
And that article was just posted six comments above yours too.

I do think a lot of people knew when these were deployed with wi-fi capability and that article came out that this was something that probably would be coming in the future. I think the part that is a bit contentious is how it could be done like this, with surprise billing after the fact, with no notice or confirmation on the car's screen. That would seem to be necessary by many state laws.
When standing outside the car, some display on the car's screen is worse than useless. And somethinf requiring acknowledge is completely unworkable.

But a physical sign next to a chargeable Destination Charger would be highly desirable, so the user can then try to find out the price, unless they already know it..
 

Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
6,406
7,564
Boise, ID
When standing outside the car, some display on the car's screen is worse than useless.
I never said that is the best option. I said it is something that could be done, rather than the nothing that was happening here.
And somethinf requiring acknowledge is completely unworkable.
🙄 Uh, what the frickin' hell? Why would you think that? Notice and acceptance of fees would be a very standard and acceptable thing.
But a physical sign next to a chargeable Destination Charger would be highly desirable, so the user can then try to find out the price, unless they already know it..
Sure, that would be another method, but also realize that is very inflexible. Gas stations all switched away from those physical numbers on their signs because of how frequently they change prices, so it can be done electronically. And similarly with this. If you have metal powder coated signs posted with the rates, how expensive is that going to be to have to get those signs reprinted just to change the electricity prices?
 

Stavinski

Member
Jan 31, 2021
89
100
USA
I never said that is the best option. I said it is something that could be done, rather than the nothing that was happening here.

🙄 Uh, what the frickin' hell? Why would you think that? Notice and acceptance of fees would be a very standard and acceptable thing.

Sure, that would be another method, but also realize that is very inflexible. Gas stations all switched away from those physical numbers on their signs because of how frequently they change prices, so it can be done electronically. And similarly with this. If you have metal powder coated signs posted with the rates, how expensive is that going to be to have to get those signs reprinted just to change the electricity prices?
Property owner can do what they want of course. As a housing provider, providing charging is an amenity offered with the hope of making the property more desirable vs competition. It’s a courtesy to put a sign that says this isn’t free, just like it’s a courtesy to put the charger and the expense of 220 service to a parking lot in the first place. Why risk angering someone with your amenity? Just don’t offer it. My guess is this is either a mistake in configuration or the residents were notified and failed to tell their guests. I would have put a sign, but I could see another owner notifying residents and moving on, especially if they are not EV owners themselves. Another possibility, this is a complex like most, managed by someone other than the owner who doesn’t give a you know what about the establishment’s long term success and didn’t give the issue 10 seconds of reflection. Actually that’s the most likely answer. Thanks for heads up OP.
 

M3BlueGeorgia

Active Member
Dec 10, 2018
1,385
1,087
Atlanta, GA
I never said that is the best option. I said it is something that could be done, rather than the nothing that was happening here.

🙄 Uh, what the frickin' hell? Why would you think that? Notice and acceptance of fees would be a very standard and acceptable thing.

Sure, that would be another method, but also realize that is very inflexible. Gas stations all switched away from those physical numbers on their signs because of how frequently they change prices, so it can be done electronically. And similarly with this. If you have metal powder coated signs posted with the rates, how expensive is that going to be to have to get those signs reprinted just to change the electricity prices?
I was suggesting a sign this charger isn't free. Needs some kind of Internet link available.

Displaying the price isn't going to be reliable.
 

sleepydoc

Member
Aug 2, 2020
88
67
Minneapolis
My guess is this is either a mistake in configuration or the residents were notified and failed to tell their guests.
That was my thought - the presumption all along is that the charging stations were always meant to be free. Perhaps they were supposed to be fee-based but were initially configured incorrectly and people were charging for free when they shouldn’t have been able to. the management may well have notified residents, too. Maybe they had ordered signs but they hadn’t arrived of been posted yet.

personally, I think Tesla should notify the owner when a fee-based charge begins. On the screen in the car would be fine - it’s not that hard to peek in the window to check, but a notification on the phone app would also be easy and convenient.
 

kayak1

Member
Jan 21, 2020
134
77
USA, The great state of Maine
That was my thought - the presumption all along is that the charging stations were always meant to be free. Perhaps they were supposed to be fee-based but were initially configured incorrectly and people were charging for free when they shouldn’t have been able to. the management may well have notified residents, too. Maybe they had ordered signs but they hadn’t arrived of been posted yet.

personally, I think Tesla should notify the owner when a fee-based charge begins. On the screen in the car would be fine - it’s not that hard to peek in the window to check, but a notification on the phone app would also be easy and convenient.
Once they really start rolling this out I expect that one will need to accept the payment terms on the car screen or via the app. We are at very early days of electricity charge back with the GEN3 connector.
 

Rice&Curry

Member
May 9, 2018
191
112
San Jose
I guess we need to looks at it with a positive attitude- with the increase in EVs, we need more chargers ( SCs or DCs ) and just as gas stations are not free to use, non personal/public chargers will not be free to use. I think we need to change our expectations - and it is for the greater good for EV buyers and users- (a) there will be incentive for installation of more DCs at public places and hotels/residential complexes- addressing the range anxiety of EV users and (b) you will only charge your EV because you need to and not because it is free- will reduce unnecessary crowding at DCs thereby giving more opportunity to the people who really need to charge to get to their destination.
 

AmokTime

Member
Nov 27, 2019
247
239
Philly metro
I agree - this might be a good thing. Today, you often can’t charge at a destination charger unless you’re a customer of its owner. Being able to bill for charging might induce more businesses to install more destination chargers and make them available to the public because it doesn’t end up costing them money to do that.
 

quantumslip

Member
Mar 3, 2015
483
517
Earth
I guess we need to looks at it with a positive attitude- with the increase in EVs, we need more chargers ( SCs or DCs ) and just as gas stations are not free to use, non personal/public chargers will not be free to use. I think we need to change our expectations - and it is for the greater good for EV buyers and users- (a) there will be incentive for installation of more DCs at public places and hotels/residential complexes- addressing the range anxiety of EV users and (b) you will only charge your EV because you need to and not because it is free- will reduce unnecessary crowding at DCs thereby giving more opportunity to the people who really need to charge to get to their destination.
i don't think anyone here in this thread has a problem with having to pay to charge. it's just that people need to be notified as to the cost beforehand.
 
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Akikiki

A'-Lo-HA ! y'all
Nov 26, 2012
6,436
4,526
Kaneohe, HI
I guess we need to looks at it with a positive attitude- with the increase in EVs, we need more chargers ( SCs or DCs ) and just as gas stations are not free to use, non personal/public chargers will not be free to use. I think we need to change our expectations - and it is for the greater good for EV buyers and users- (a) there will be incentive for installation of more DCs at public places and hotels/residential complexes- addressing the range anxiety of EV users and (b) you will only charge your EV because you need to and not because it is free- will reduce unnecessary crowding at DCs thereby giving more opportunity to the people who really need to charge to get to their destination.
Very good observation and comment. And go back to the first few post and replace the DC/WC/electricity with Gas pump/gasoline and let's see if we think the same way as the thread progresses. :)
 

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