This has all been very interesting to hear the opinions! Let me add one subtlety: these two (free) spots are usually taken. Usually by high-end EVs (etrons) and/or plug-in hybrids (Rav4 Prime, etc). This site is 1/2 mile from the "town center" and on the other side of the center (also 1/2 mile, but opposite direction) there are 12 L2 chargers that are never used (i have never seen more than 2 taken) and cost $1/hr. So I think it really is just people want free charging, but if anyone were desperate, it's never the only game in town...
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Getting complaints about using public level 2 charger
- Thread starter NYMY
- Start date
This is off-topic but I wanted to add, I feel like charging for level 2 is ridiculous for businesses. It only encourages patronage and the cost is negligible. I pick the free ones first as a matter of principle (albeit a very self-serving one!). I've debated opening up my 80amp L2 charger for public use from my garage but I have no reason to want people to linger at my house, lol. Maybe I can help out my neighborhood kids lemonade stand.
Even though those are high end cars, they might be in condos that don’t have chargers and might be $20k+ to install one. Still, people shouldn’t get upset like that. They should leave a polite note saying they don’t have home charging and would ask nicely if you did to leave the charger for others.
It’s good to know there are more chargers there, but the nature of L2 only makes it useful if you can leave it for awhile. If the guy works 10 to 15 minute walk away from those chargers, the empty ones might be a 25 minute walk or something.
Again, don’t feel like you did something wrong, but I’m just explaining personally what I would tend to do. Skipping the L2s that often seems busy if I have home charging available. (But I feel like sometimes I get pushed around in the world, so your mileage may vary, lol)
I‘ve often thought about that too. What I think actually is happening is they’re using a 3rd party to manage them and that 3rd party charges a fee, so they recover that via a cost to use the chargers.
In that case you are 100% clear in my book. Anyone who “Needs” power can drop the cash. You are competing with people who are in the same ballpark as you.
Went to a brewpub by the coast and they had an L2 charger that charges $0.20/ kWh (power is typically $0.07/ kWh from the power company). It worked via tap-to-pay so it was an easy call since I needed juice.
IMO affordable chargers are a better compromise than free ones. Free ones are often filled with people who are just being cheap.
In my experience, free chargers aren't filled at all and neither are paid ones. Ah, to be in the midwest~
(But wait, they are empty until I come along so that must mean I'm the cheap one
)
davewill
Active Member
Yes, yes, yes. Not just free L2, but free Supercharging, too. It just jams up locations with people who don't actually need to be there.
I’m pretty sure Tesla ditching free Supercharging was largely due to the tragedy of the commons. Free Supercharging meant some users piled on massive amounts of use which had a massively disproportionate effect on the Supercharger network.
I do admit to a bit of this myself. Our local community college has a big solar array with about 20 chargers which usually have 1-2 cars. I‘ve spent a lot of time hiking and biking in the hills on and around that campus while sucking up free juice. But when I’m the only car in the lot, I’m not exactly blocking anyone else’s access.
UncleCreepy
Member
The way I see it is that if you depend on free (or even paid) L2 chargers, it's on you. I don't think I need to keep a spot open for someone who isn't even there. If I can get free electricity, I'll just go for it.
If the charger is occupied then I'll have to look elsewhere or charge at home (again, not anybody else's fault if I can't charge at home).
I would never tell a plugin hybrid driver to leave because he doesn't need electricity. He was there first, end of story.
Of course that changes once they're done charging and don't vacate the spot. As much as I dislike charging stations being ICE'd, it's actually worse if fellow EV drivers do the same thing. We really should know better than blocking a charging spot.
With that said, I've had it multiple times that someone clearly needed the free spot I was using and most of the time I offered them to take the spot. That doesn't require any non-existent etiquette, it's just common sense (don't be a douche).
That's my $0.02 anyway. I can see why the other driver in OP's post got upset but ultimately it's not up to them to create rules for other people's chargers.
If the charger is occupied then I'll have to look elsewhere or charge at home (again, not anybody else's fault if I can't charge at home).
I would never tell a plugin hybrid driver to leave because he doesn't need electricity. He was there first, end of story.
Of course that changes once they're done charging and don't vacate the spot. As much as I dislike charging stations being ICE'd, it's actually worse if fellow EV drivers do the same thing. We really should know better than blocking a charging spot.
With that said, I've had it multiple times that someone clearly needed the free spot I was using and most of the time I offered them to take the spot. That doesn't require any non-existent etiquette, it's just common sense (don't be a douche).
That's my $0.02 anyway. I can see why the other driver in OP's post got upset but ultimately it's not up to them to create rules for other people's chargers.
Sure, unless you live in a condo and your home owners association is keeping you from installing one or something.
UncleCreepy
Member
I get that. It's a tough situation.
However, asking other people to vacate a spot -at least in my book- is not the solution. What do you do if your neighbor is in the same situation at the same time? If we artificially make it look like as though there were enough charging stations by only using them if we desperately need them, nobody would see the need to build more.
I think what you mentioned is more of a political issue. As a tenant or if you live in a condo, you should absolutely have the right to have a charging station installed. This is going to happen anyway sooner or later once people don't want to rent an apartment anymore if they can't charge. That's probably still a long way to go though.
However, asking other people to vacate a spot -at least in my book- is not the solution. What do you do if your neighbor is in the same situation at the same time? If we artificially make it look like as though there were enough charging stations by only using them if we desperately need them, nobody would see the need to build more.
I think what you mentioned is more of a political issue. As a tenant or if you live in a condo, you should absolutely have the right to have a charging station installed. This is going to happen anyway sooner or later once people don't want to rent an apartment anymore if they can't charge. That's probably still a long way to go though.
**Asking** is fine. In fact I've seen people leave their number on the dash of their car just for this contingency. Unless I am in a similar situation, I'll give up my spot any time.
Demanding, getting angry, etc is not. You can't get entitled about what is a public service. Particularly not in the OPs case where there are alternatives available.
Physicslawyer
Member
I used a Chargepoint yesterday. We were getting 22 miles an hour. I usually Supercharge. I didn't realize just how slow the L2 chargers are. Is this the same if you use a charger at your house? Would a Juicebox or similar at home also get 22 miles per hour for the Tesla, like the L2 we used yesterday? (The car at the charger next to us was a MX).
They are usually 6 or 7 kW, so if you're around 250-260 Wh/mi and throw in few % for charging efficiency, that is right. These are basically the same as Juicebox or Tesla wall charger, depending on the amperage it's wired for...
Based on the photo you posted of your PMY charging at the L2 Chargepoint this was a 6kW charging station (200V to 208V and 30A). In my experience most public L2 are like the one you used. A home L2 charging equivalent would be 240V and 32A. If your home has the capacity you could charge at 40A or 48A
Tesla Model Y Level 2 charging (Residential power ~240V)
60A circuit, charges at 48A, 11.5kW charging rate adds up to 42 miles per hour
50A circuit, charges at 40A, 9.6kW charging rate adds up to 36 miles per hour
40A circuit, charges at 32A, 7.7kW charging rate adds up to 29 miles per hour
30A circuit, charges at 24A, 5.7kW charging rate adds up to 21 miles per hour.
Usually my home charger is faster than the L2 chargers I find in the wild.
L2 chargers are useful if you are staying somewhere for a long time already or if you only have 110v charging at home, but for road trips they are almost worthless. Only time I bother is if I’m on the road and there is one convenient to a stop. Or if I’m coming up 20 miles short of the next leg. If home power was expensive I might be tempted more often, but our rate is $0.08/ kWh.
L2 chargers are useful if you are staying somewhere for a long time already or if you only have 110v charging at home, but for road trips they are almost worthless. Only time I bother is if I’m on the road and there is one convenient to a stop. Or if I’m coming up 20 miles short of the next leg. If home power was expensive I might be tempted more often, but our rate is $0.08/ kWh.
davewill
Active Member
As pointed out above, that station and most commercial stations, are 6kW* (208v 30a). Your MYP can charge at up to 11.5kW (240v 48a), and the SR+ you have on order can charge at up to 7.6kW (240v 32a). To get 48a charging at home, you'll need a wall connector installed on a 60a circuit. The 7.6kW charging level can be gotten with either a wall connector or a mobile connector on a 40a circuit (although typically, people install a 50a circuit as it matches the 14-50 outlet used for the mobile connector). With a 50a circuit, the wall connector and the Juicebox can give you 9.6kW (240v 40a) on the same 50a circuit. For normal overnight charging, all of these are entirely acceptable. indeed, some people charge at much lower rates. If you read here long, you'll see people charging on 20a, 30a, and even regular 120v 15a plugs. I daily charge at 7.2kW (240v 30a) as that's what I installed 11 years ago for my LEAF.
* The reason I'm not using mph to describe the charging speeds is that two different models will have different mph charging rates on the same hardware.
boulder.dude
Member
tldr; a ‘good’ home charger is 2x faster than a typical L2 charger.
If you see a “Tesla Destination Charger” at a hotel it is in-between these two extremes.
If you see a “Tesla Destination Charger” at a hotel it is in-between these two extremes.
Physicslawyer
Member
As a former Leaf owner, I understand the 'need to charge'. I could charge at home and at work which made that short-range car work for commuting, however, if I had to run errands, I would sometimes 'need to charge', just to make it home.
As such, I didn't waste time looking for Free chargers. They would usually be in use or broken. They were just as likely to be used by a Fiat500 enjoying the cheap car and free electrons as a Volt or Tesla. Instead, I would look for pay ones because I could usually find one available without spending too much time looking.
Clearly, the rules for use of a charger are and should be entirely up to whomever installs the charger and pays for the electricity and upkeep. We should follow those rules.
In general, however, public chargers are for the public to use to support EVs for some reason. As such, while long range EV drivers don't necessarily 'Need' to charge, they, and PHEV drivers still, IMHO, have equal rights to use the chargers. I, personally, prefer that a PHEV charge and use electrons rather than burn gas. Maybe he/she can't afford or park another car like I do but wants to minimize gasoline use. I'm also quite sure that, if an establishment puts in an EV charger to attract people (customers, employees, etc), they don't care if its a long-range EV driver for whom the free electrons are the draw or an apartment dweller who frequents their grocery versus some other because they have the chargers.
If you want to get into the wrong users: that is the EV driver who uses the charger without patronizing the host establishment or meeting their desired usage of the charger.
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