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Getting interesting... BMW 3-Series EV

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If you are talking to me, I have met Tarpenning and heard him speak. Musk is not an infallible, all knowing christ and those in closely associated with him are not prophets. They are a bunch of smart nerdy dudes pursuing what they like, with all the flaws and misjudgements of humans.

Almost all the skill and knowledge at Tesla Motors, outside of software, now comes from the traditional auto industry. There are large numbers of very skilled people in the traditional auto industry because it is an super competitive business.
 
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I remember that, although I really thought the comment was a bit inane. BMW explicitly and semi-publicly fears Tesla precisely because Tesla already threatens their high-end cars in several markets. The Tesla high-end market share is causing financial loss for several of them. That's not mind-share, it's money!

Clearly the risk to them is about Tesla market-share moving down scale to more nearly mass markets. Again, not mind-share, but ~400,000 lost sales even before the car has even been revealed.

Car companies think of market share, margins and net profit. Mind share, sure but nothing nearly so much as lost sales.


True. Except the comment is also very insightful into the mentality of leadership at traditional auto makers.

It is clearly born out by the current (very expensive) saturation advertising campaigns by established auto-makers, like Cadillac saying it is "reinventing innovation," and that they "dare to dare greatly" and "drive the world forward," with commercials featuring Steve Wozniak. Its all about spinning the image for future "mind share!" And implicitly striving to steal the thunder from Tesla's real daring and real innovation, and counter it through slick marketing BS. Look at Audi similarly selling "truth in engineering" or "advancement through technology." And serial press releases announcing a "Tesla Killer" which vanishes into vaporware, show the company to whom the slogan would more aptly apply: Tesla!

Why the PR saturation blitzes? Because mind share means the sales of the future, and they are used to competing on the basis of public image manufacture. I think the auto execs find it deeply troubling that Tesla has been able to achieve such a degree of "mind share," without investing in any commercial media advertising. Tesla accomplishes vast market reach without image manufacturing through slick advertising, which is one of the largest expenses of all major auto manufacturers today.

It seems clear by the tone and rhetoric in the PR arena that many of these companies are in fact terrified, but really feel at a loss to how to address this. The PR spin simply is not enough, nor is the FUD spin. None of this is working to slow down Tesla's acquisition of "mind share," it grows apace!

And the irony is that the PR spin of Cadillac or Audi or others, ends up pointing out that Tesla is the real thing and they are the pretenders! It's NOT good PR! Even the FUD spin that over time shows itself to be false and ulterior, ends up propelling Tesla's "mind share."
 
True. Except the comment is also very insightful into the mentality of leadership at traditional auto makers.

...
It seems clear by the tone and rhetoric in the PR arena that many of these companies are in fact terrified, but really feel at a loss to how to address this. ...

And the irony is that the PR spin of Cadillac or Audi or others, ends up pointing out that Tesla is the real thing and they are the pretenders! It's NOT good PR! Even the FUD spin that over time shows itself to be false and ulterior, ends up propelling Tesla's "mind share."
Given that we all are on the same side in these issues I still find it odd that most of us seem to think the world's vehicle manufacturers are in a state of panic over Tesla.
Even Clean Technica quotes recent studies saying 60% of US people are unaware of electric vehicles:
Survey: 60% Of Americans Aren’t Aware Of Plug-in Electric Vehicles … At All
Given that even today when driving outside major BEV concentration areas I encounter lots of people who are totally unaware of electric vehicles. Those of us who imagine a sudden transformational conversion to BEV's are [drinking the Kool-Aid or smoking the dope] of our own community.

Even such huge transformations as telephones, internet, cars themselves and smartphones have taken at least a decade to reach ubiquity, and even then most have taken much longer to reach even 25% market penetration, much less dominance.
BEV's are an important part of auto manufacturers planning, no doubt. However, only the three Germans (VW Group, Daimler and BMW) are really anything close to panic, and they are all moving aggressively to meet regulatory demands with broad market acceptance still unknown. Even Norway, our poster child, has not reached anything close to BEV market dominance.

Cost parity or even cost advantage will contribute to earlier acceptance, to be sure, but there is a giant leap top dominance.

Our common idea that ride sharing and vehicle autonomy will instantly overcome anything else are similarly vastly overstated.

Surely about 1/3 of US millennials don't have cars or plan to have them. Most cannot afford them, many still live with their parents, many others are migrating to large urban areas with plentiful public transportation. Change is obviously coming but that does not mean we're on the cusp of massive instant conversion to BEV's or autonomous vehicles.

Yes the big auto companies are concerned. Yes they're all doing investment on both BEV and autonomy. No, they are not all quaking in their boots about Tesla. BMW clearly is, but few share their risks.

Finally, I am very long TSLA and am an enthusiastic investor. Just think, though, how small BMW is as an auto builder. They have a very deep concentration in high end vehicles including Rolls-Royce and everything above the series 1 and 2. Those latter forays into cheaper cars are barely profitable for them, so they're worried that Tesla is gaining share in the higher levels and is threatening their core profits with the Model 3.

Even though I am academically and professionally closely tied to marketing issues including lots of automobile work, I understand that the emotional ties tend not to drive category choice but do influence brand choice.

The emotional appeal of BEV's (call it mid share if we must trivialize the concept) does play a strong role for early adoption, but beyond early adoption there is a deep resistance to adoption of anything really new. As close to "really new" as we can find in the last fifty years was the Ford Mustang of 1964 and the VW mania of slightly earlier. Neither was truly transformational and neither they nor any other type actually changed broad preferences. In fact the only two broadly accepted 'innovations' have been pickups (the best selling vehicle in the US has been the Ford F-150 for decades, followed by the the GM and Chrysler types) and Hatchbacks (the European marketing equivalent of pickups of North America). BEV's are barely visible in those segments although the latter is more susceptible than the former.

Those among us who imagine this will change quickly are deluding themselves. The auto builders know that. Thus, BEV;s will grow rapidly, especially in Europe, China and India. Some palaces will force more rapid adoption. Still, the legacy builders are not dying, they have plenty of time to adapt. Some will fail, but lack of BEV's will only be a small part of their demise.

So, BMW is launching the new electric 3 series on a new platform intended to allow multiple options for power. They'll succeed, I think. For the record I did own a BMW Z-1 which only demonstrated new technologies for body-building. I have driven but now owned i3 and i8. BMW has a long history of building expensive experiments prior to mass deployment. It's worked well for them. They'll do well this time too. They'll not stop ICE anytime soon. They're not deluded.
 
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BMW has already said that they are doing that. The question is how skillfully they balance the tradeoffs.

BMW is undoubtedly uncertain on how many people really want and electric 3 series over the next 5-7 years. They are right to be uncertain.

The stable demand for the Tesla Model 3 could be 300,000 or 3,000,000 per year. No one knows for sure, except for a few TMC posters. BMW needs to compete but not trash the company if demands swings strongly one way or another.
Don't build the best product you can (for each price point). NO. Manufacture both demand (via ads) and the products you are comfortable making and the profits (maximize) you want. Elon doesn't think that way. Builds the safest, most efficient (electric) quickest sedan ever made - in that order. Elon doesn't worry about ads, brand building. That is part of what makes Tesla different. Continual improvement another factor - drives some customers crazy as the only way to get the latest and greatest is to perhaps lease and upgrade every 1 or 2 years.
 
Even such huge transformations as telephones, internet, cars themselves and smartphones have taken at least a decade to reach ubiquity, and even then most have taken much longer to reach even 25% market penetration, much less dominance.

Surely about 1/3 of US millennials don't have cars or plan to have them. Most cannot afford them, many still live with their parents, many others are migrating to large urban areas with plentiful public transportation. Change is obviously coming but that does not mean we're on the cusp of massive instant conversion to BEV's or autonomous vehicles.

Yes the big auto companies are concerned. Yes they're all doing investment on both BEV and autonomy.

Even though I am academically and professionally closely tied to marketing issues including lots of automobile work, I understand that the emotional ties tend not to drive category choice but do influence brand choice.

Those among us who imagine this will change quickly are deluding themselves.
Have you listened [or read ReThinkX] Tony Seba about disruption?
Any insights to Seba's points you care to share?
Home

I'll let you find his talks on YouTube. He is continually updated his information, so the latest versions are best, but you may see a venue you prefer.
 
?..Elon doesn't worry about ads, brand building. That is part of what makes Tesla different...
In our world today conventional advertising has reached diminishing returns. Adept use of social media can have disproportionally large effect by reaching the most likely buyers. That can happen without even using any ads at all. In this respect, probably the only one, Tesla reaches likely buyers similarly to Donald Trump reaching his core supporters. Neither reaches the broader population.

Does Tesla really need to reach everyone anytime soon? I doubt they have any need to do so until they can annually produce about five million vehicles and/or solar residential installations of about half a million or so. Success in commercial/industrial solar products will probably never require broad awareness.

Tesla will never need the conventional waste of 'brand building' campaigns. Thankfully they'll continue to be exceedingly efficient in reaching needed populations. That said, within the next six months there will be some limited audience building efforts ; quite efficient ones I think.
 
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Tesla will never need the conventional waste of 'brand building' campaigns. Thankfully they'll continue to be exceedingly efficient in reaching needed populations. That said, within the next six months there will be some limited audience building efforts ; quite efficient ones I think.

Didn't Musk recently talk about future advertising?

Tesla and Musk think plenty about brand and their position in the market. They will try to do the smart thing, whatever that happens to be.
 
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Advertising strategy is an Interesting topic and tangentially related to original post I suppose. Just curious how folks would describe the key similarities/differences between core customesrs of Tesla and the core customers of BMW? (Assuming the Model 3 is in full production and available for purchase)
 
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Advertising strategy is an Interesting topic and tangentially related to original post I suppose. Just curious how folks would describe the key similarities/differences between core customesrs of Tesla and the core customers of BMW? (Assuming the Model 3 is in full production and available for purchase)
This is a crucial question, I am quite certain of that. For sure, the answers in both cases vary substantially by model of BMW and model of Tesla too. I suspect owners of PxxxD and Mxxx tend towards more homogeneity than do other models. The base BMW 1,2,3 Series and the base Teslas are likely to be very, very different, in that the base BMW's tend to attract aspirational and status oriented buyers while base Teslas tend to attract people who are consciously choosing a practical, moderately affordable green choice. The largest single difference behaviorally probably is the average driving per month for Tesla will be much higher than that of BMW, probably that is a fairly comparable discrepancies across the entire model ranges.

I wish we had data with which to understand these things. It's interesting to speculate but I'd much rather know the actual facts.
 
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The M3, as per Elon, is going to be the cheapest Tesla vehicle for the foreseeable future, correct? I know eventually Model 26 will be cheaper because of the cheaper battery pack but that's going to be decades from now.
There certainly is a large and growing market for even smaller cars as evidenced by A3, 1/2-series, etc. sales. Europe would prob buy a lot of EV "hot hatches". Once the power density improves, and the Model 3 sees success, I don't see why Tesla wouldn't do that.
 
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This is great news. The i3 may be a good car for many, but it is not targeted to a traditional BMW driver. I had an ActiveE (beta test BMW 1 series with the ICE and gas tank replaced by electric motor and 100 mile battery). It was awesome; I would have kept it if they let me. My normcore taste would not permit me to buy an i3.

An electric 3 will be strong competition. Assuming identical range, I'm not sure if I would have purchased my S if a BMW 3 had been available. This is great news for the segment--let's hope they do the 5 too!

you are the stuff of legend! I was following the ActivE sooooooo close back in the days (never got to drive one) and thought it was gonna be obvious that they would bump the battery up to 45kw for the release model. And then we got the crappy i3. T_T
 
I just finished a 3 hour drive in a Cadillac ATS 2.0T
This car is billed as a BMW 3 series competitor. If this is accurate, the Model 3 will blow away not only a 3 series but every other car in that category. Model 3 will offer better performance, more room, and better handling at a price 10K less than the competitors. I could do a more in depth review of the ATS but suffice it to say: You don't want one.
I did own a 3 series a few years back though and those cars offer a great dynamic experience. Having driven a Model S for a weekend though, and knowing the Model 3 should be more nimble and fun to drive than the S, for me it's case closed vs a 3 series or similar.
 
Model 3 will offer better performance, more room, and better handling at a price 10K less than the competitors.
Without adding too much to cost (10K less than competitors), I'm not sure how Tesla could make the car handle any better than the ICE vehicles it is competing with for buyers. It would benefit from a low center of gravity but the additional weight would be an obvious encumbrance around tight turns. They could add suspension, braking and stickier/wider tires and lighter weight wheels at additional cost for a performance package.

I think people may be a bit disappointed if they keep building this car up as the best of everything without understanding what it would take in terms of cost. This is after all the first version of a car for the masses and while it's cheap and simple to add power to an EV, it is not so simple to figure out cooling and weight reduction which factor into competitive performance.
 
Zenmaster,

What makes you so confident the Model 3 will weigh more than a 3 series with similar performance?
Elon has often cautioned against using past experience (Model S) to predict the Model 3 experience.
If Model 3 75RWD weighs around the same as the 3 series 330i the Model 3 has the POTENTIAL to handle better.
I think Elon and crew are well aware of the target competition. They did a pretty good job with Model S even though the battery tech was not where the 2170's will be for Model 3.