Getting pissed with degredation

[Candleflame]

I assume this was an extrapolated number and not shown on the display (I've never seen a picture of an LR AWD 2018/2019 showing more than 310 rated miles).



Oh, I know. But remember that 310 rated miles is likely "capped" cleverly. 2018 cars started at at least 77.5-78kWh based on known SMT data. If you use the simple constant, that equates to 318 rated miles (78kWh/245Wh/rmi = 318rmi). Tesla likely "cleverly" conceals this by inflating the rated miles energy content (so it is higher than 245Wh/rmi) until you hit the degradation threshold of 76kWh (310rmi*245Wh/rmi = 76kWh) (that's why 2018/2019 cars didn't show degradation for a few months, typically). This way, you'll see rated miles immediately start to click off when the car is new, but they click off slightly more slowly when the car is new (about 2.5% more slowly). Tesla benefits from this because no one freaks out that their car shows fewer rated miles than another owner, and they can ship batteries that have a small variability (probably 2-3%) in initial capacity - and they all display as having the same initial 310 rated mile range, as long as they start over 76kWh. (For 2020 AWD, this threshold has changed to 77.6kWh, BTW, so they'll need tighter tolerance on that initial capacity to achieve the same result - closer to 1-1.5%.)

You're below the threshold, so we can definitively say you have about 306rmi*245Wh/rmi = 75kWh of energy remaining when your battery is fully charged.

It's very likely given your capacity loss performance and the age of the car that you started with over 78kWh (if you had had SMT from the beginning you would know this for sure, but you'll have to trust me). Looks like you started with a great battery, likely with 1-2kWh more capacity than some other owners.

So that would be 75kWh/78kWh = 96%, so 4% capacity loss.

There's not really any doubt here - keep in mind that Tesla published the capacity of the battery in their EPA-submitted documents to be in excess of 79kWh, for 2018, 2019 and 2020. (For whatever reason this appears to translate to closer to 78kWh in SMT, but this is kind of a side issue. The exact discrepancy is unknown since I've never seen an SMT readout on a brand new vehicle, or even one that is just a week or two old with a few thousand miles on it (more representative of the EPA test article).)

I think thats because there is currently no standard to measure battery capacity for cars. Maybe Tesla gave them a 0.1c discharge rate where the batteries probably produce a lot more than 78kwh.

Yes it's down to how you drive the car, but like I'm saying they're overpromising in the sense that the EPA testing is flawed, yet they still went by it's #s. I have to actually drive my LR AWD efficiently if I want the rated mileage (which is really really really hard, seeing how much power/fun it is), while in my previous car (prius), it is much much easier to hit the EPA rated mileage without even trying to drive it efficiently at all and if I tried (hypermiling) then I can really really beat the EPA mileage rating by a long shot.

The funny thing is that I'm watching Bjorn do a range test on a model 3 in California highway traffic going 90km/h (55mph equivalent, funny how he doesn't switch it to mph even when he's in the states), and yes he blows the mileage range out of the water, but he's pretty much going way under the speed limit (and everyone around him) AND he's limiting his AC use.

So it goes back to the OP that they feel they have battery degradation because they look at the (ever changing) mileage calculation of their 3 and compare that to what the stated range should be (on paper), and it'll never be what it's stated because they don't drive their 3 like they want to save every last drop of energy.

thats normal. its easier if you dont switch. I.e. I drove in the UK for many years with km/h even though I learned driving there. After a while when you look at a speed sign 20 -> 30 30 -> 50 40 -> 65 50 -> 80 60 -> 100 70 -> 110 just happens automatically in your mind.
km/h is also a bit easier to use imho due to smaller increments. mph everything is so close together...

 

[Candleflame]

Your degradation is not real, just BMS, it will take you two months in warm climate to climb right back.
I am at 40,000km now,25000miles @ 1 year 3 months ownership and have about 74.5-75kWh nominal full or about 4% less than brand new which is ok. I almost always only charge 10/20%-90% (on trips I do mostly 0/10%-80/90%)and never have the car plugged in all the time. Have charged to full at least a dozen times.

I also do frequent deep cycles due to being in Australia with huge distances (i.e. nearest 190kw charger is 380km away). Is there any consensus on how harmful it is to a) drive the car down to i.e. 2% regularly and b) drive the car down to i.e. 2% and then immediately supercharge?

I dont think the cooling down argument has much validity as the car will try to heat the battery agressively when supercharging anyway...

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Tesla does use the alternative EPA test procedure (which does not use the standard 30% off of udds tests, and allows them to provide a different smaller value). It would be good to know what their standard EPA numbers would have been.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Tesla does use the alternative EPA test procedure (which does not use the standard 30% off of udds tests, and allows them to provide a different smaller value). It would be good to know what their standard EPA numbers would have been.

All this data is publicly available. They do two-cycle and 5-cycle testing and publish all results and the scalar used is well known. (Between 0.7 and 0.75 depending on the vehicle and the 5-cycle results).

 

[No42]

Degradation is now 2.57% from 2.44% after driving additional 2k miles.
Total milage 8k.

So, I had a sharp decline in range recently, I am at 8.5% or at 295 miles at 9k miles.
Contacted SC and got the dreaded response as usual.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

So, I had a sharp decline in range recently, I am at 8.5% or at 295 miles at 9k miles.
Contacted SC and got the dreaded response as usual.
View attachment 601903
View attachment 601905

To be fair to Tesla, this is well within the normal range. Your car is slightly more than two years old. 8-9% capacity loss is perfectly normal, though on the higher end of normal, and hopefully it will slow down a lot from here (I think we're all hoping that).

Mine is at about 285-290 rated miles at 100%, and it seems perfectly fine. But I certainly hope I don't drop below 275 for another 2-3 years. We'll see.

 

[No42]

So, I had a sharp decline in range recently, I am at 8.5% or at 295 miles at 9k miles.
Contacted SC and got the dreaded response as usual.
View attachment 601903

View attachment 601905

To be fair to Tesla, this is well within the normal range. Your car is slightly more than two years old. 8-9% capacity loss is perfectly normal, though on the higher end of normal, and hopefully it will slow down a lot from here (I think we're all hoping that).

Mine is at about 285-290 rated miles at 100%, and it seems perfectly fine. But I certainly hope I don't drop below 275 for another 2-3 years. We'll see.

Thanks, one correction, my car is less than 1y. Dec 19 delivery.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Thanks, one correction, my car is less than 1y. Dec 19 delivery.

Sorry was just looking at your post history and guess I missed something.

A little high for that age but it does happen. Someone I know who lost a lot of range early also plateaued quickly.

 

[No42]

Yes, got it.
Just bit concerning it went from 2.5% to 8.5% in about a month and 1k.
Hope would stay there.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Yes, got it.
Just bit concerning it went from 2.5% to 8.5% in about a month and 1k.
Hope would stay there.

Tends to come in big chunks for some reason. Probably has a bit of hysteresis,or perhaps it’s sometimes just a welded wire on a cell popping off. That’ll limit brick capacity and result in a sudden range drop since it looks for the minimum CAC of any brick, I believe.

Probably something more mundane and less defective than that most of the time though.

 

[diamond.g]

If you are using TeslaFi you can see the trend/average per software update. If you see added range at all, you clearly haven’t actually lost range.

I really am beginning to wonder if folks would be happier with a GOM versus fixed wH/mile * perceived capacity.

 

[Candleflame]

So, I had a sharp decline in range recently, I am at 8.5% or at 295 miles at 9k miles.
Contacted SC and got the dreaded response as usual.
View attachment 601903
View attachment 601905

You have exactly the same degradation as me. I have 25k km but already had same degradation at 17k km. 1 year old model 3. Im bang on average on teslafi.
I might also add that tesla gives 3% degradation for free, even with the newer batteries (i.e. 475 km to 499km is only 5% even though the car displays almost 9% for you.

nothing unusual.

 

[Candleflame]

Tends to come in big chunks for some reason. Probably has a bit of hysteresis,or perhaps it’s sometimes just a welded wire on a cell popping off. That’ll limit brick capacity and result in a sudden range drop since it looks for the minimum CAC of any brick, I believe.

Probably something more mundane and less defective than that most of the time though.

yeah i think noone really knows for sure and there are various theories.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Does Tesla actively/dynamically add/reduce buffer like the newer Leaf?

 

[CertLive]

Its a hard figure down to 70% before Tesla have to do anything. What is pie in the sky is the estimates you use when you buy the car have to be lower than its original range. That 30% degradation is huge but in reality for the first 4-6 years at least you will only see 10% maybe 20% but the super charging network will see you through this with faster stops and automatically manage it with the BMS. I do say stick with percentage displayed and accept it with EV ownership. If it actually stops you from getting from A to B then another car is needed. But hard to find one as efficient as a Tesla. All the cells from all the cars maybe out by different percentages but can that car still get you from A to B just fine?

 

[lozza]

I've been suspecting I've dropped some capacity too. I have a Sep 2018 P3D- with about 29,000 miles. I've averaged 264 Wh/mi over the life of the car. 100% charge indicates ~287 miles. But that's not what I'm really concerned about as that's just an estimate. I also always drive with % showing vs. estimated range. I'm also getting pretty good efficiency, especially as I have 18" Pilot 4 tires on the car.

I've taken the approach of looking at the KWh used per % drop in charge. e.g. 50% drop (like from 92% to 42%) and indicated 33KWh used. In this example that would indicate 66KWh total battery capacity at 100%. I did some sameples to get an average on a road trip I just did and I found my average 100% capacity is 65.85KWh vs. 75KWh, which is a 12.2% drop. I've attached a small table with my samples.

Not really happy at just under 30K miles. I've supercharged less than a 1/4 of my miles.

2018 P3D- Battery Degradation

• lozza
• Oct 25, 2020

 

[hcdavis3]

Its a hard figure down to 70% before Tesla have to do anything. What is pie in the sky is the estimates you use when you buy the car have to be lower than its original range. That 30% degradation is huge but in reality for the first 4-6 years at least you will only see 10% maybe 20% but the super charging network will see you through this with faster stops and automatically manage it with the BMS. I do say stick with percentage displayed and accept it with EV ownership. If it actually stops you from getting from A to B then another car is needed. But hard to find one as efficient as a Tesla. All the cells from all the cars maybe out by different percentages but can that car still get you from A to B just fine?

I’ve lost 9% in the first four months of ownership. This is not normal. Tesla says it’s my driving habits that caused this. Short drives. I’ve done several drives of 50 miles or 100 RT and my range continues to go down with almost every charge. I’ve discharged to 20% and back to 90%. Range still goes down.I call BS on Tesla.

 

[ElectricMozart]

I've been suspecting I've dropped some capacity too. I have a Sep 2018 P3D- with about 29,000 miles. I've averaged 264 Wh/mi over the life of the car. 100% charge indicates ~287 miles. But that's not what I'm really concerned about as that's just an estimate. I also always drive with % showing vs. estimated range. I'm also getting pretty good efficiency, especially as I have 18" Pilot 4 tires on the car.

I've taken the approach of looking at the KWh used per % drop in charge. e.g. 50% drop (like from 92% to 42%) and indicated 33KWh used. In this example that would indicate 66KWh total battery capacity at 100%. I did some sameples to get an average on a road trip I just did and I found my average 100% capacity is 65.85KWh vs. 75KWh, which is a 12.2% drop. I've attached a small table with my samples.

Not really happy at just under 30K miles. I've supercharged less than a 1/4 of my miles.

2018 P3D- Battery Degradation

• lozza
• Oct 25, 2020

Interesting data. Thanks for sharing. I have a Sept 2019 AWD LR myself and while I don't have the data to display like you do, I can confirm mine is very similar. I currently have just over 50k miles and my lifetime avg is 271 wh/mi. My max range at 100% soc is 276 miles as of this morning. If I took the time to calculate KWh like you did, I'd probably be just under you in capacity. I am also not really happy and question what range I'll be at in 2 or 3 more years.

There seems to be quite a few of us here with range questions. Has anyone done a comparison on Model 3 degradation to Model S and X? I was curious if the Model 3 battery is seeing more degradation than the S or X.

 

[KenC]

Interesting data. Thanks for sharing. I have a Sept 2019 AWD LR myself and while I don't have the data to display like you do, I can confirm mine is very similar. I currently have just over 50k miles and my lifetime avg is 271 wh/mi. My max range at 100% soc is 276 miles as of this morning. If I took the time to calculate KWh like you did, I'd probably be just under you in capacity. I am also not really happy and question what range I'll be at in 2 or 3 more years.

There seems to be quite a few of us here with range questions. Has anyone done a comparison on Model 3 degradation to Model S and X? I was curious if the Model 3 battery is seeing more degradation than the S or X.

Anecdotally, I think the answer is yes, but remember the batteries are different in the "3" vs the S or X.

 

[KenC]

Have any of you showing high TeslaFi deg data tried using ABRP, and seeing what deg number that app comes up with?

If you register with your vehicle, and supercharge, it supposedly pulls some data from the supercharger, allowing it to make a degradation estimate: