Ghost Braking Danger on Cruise Control

[Gasaraki]

They need to work on this for sure. Sometimes the car slows down then speeds back up for no reason.

 

[Knightshade]

They need to work on this for sure. Sometimes the car slows down then speeds back up for no reason.

there's always a reason, even if it's not obvious to the driver (or even a reason a human would do it)

 

[john5520]

Then surely you can show lots of examples of it causing accidents, right?

Hopefully, you're not in charge of any kind of system that can affect public safety.

 

[Knightshade]

Hopefully, you're not in charge of any kind of system that can affect public safety.

Why? Because I expect that if somebody wants a thing to be considered a danger they provide evidence it is one?

If you think that's unreasonable, hopefully you're not in charge of anything


5th time asking BTW what your "simple/easy" fix you insist must exist for the issue is BTW....

 

[john5520]

This is the first time on any forum I had to hit the ignore button.

 

[ElectricIAC]

20.12 just about had this issue licked but 24.x saw a regression in my experience...

Also noticing more pacing next lane much more often near large vehicles like its reading them coming into my lane when they’re clearly still in their own lane. I get that they’re erring in the side of caution but this needs dialed back a touch like in 20.12

 

[Knightshade]

This is the first time on any forum I had to hit the ignore button.

Given your continued insistence impossible things can be done easily but you won't tell us how, and you'll keep insisting on it 10 posts after you claimed you were done posting, I suspect it won't be the last if you dislike being called on it that much

 

[nayr14]

They're re-engineering the entire system right now. It's likely to improve this issue as well as a bunch of others (though it'll be interesting to see if it only improves them for HW3 owners, which seems likely)- last word was 2-4 months before public release of the re-write.

If you're talking about the AP rewrite, Andrej Kaparthy spoke regarding this. The consensus is are moving more functionality into the neural net, which should ideally make it better, but it's not guaranteed. They are not rewriting the entire system, in fact he says the 1.0 explicit code base is much better at certain tasks. It may require a better sensor package, noting as how they haven't fixed this yet and it's a genuine safety concern.

Other brands TACC don't phantom brake because of a shadow on the interstate. Tesla's implementation is inferior in intended performance relative to many brands.

 

[Knightshade]

They are not rewriting the entire system

Someone should let Elon know, since he said a few days ago (ie months after your video was filmed)

Pretty much everything had to be rewritten, including our labeling software, so that it’s fundamentally ‘3D’ at every step from training through inference.

T
Other brands TACC don't phantom brake because of a shadow on the interstate. Tesla's implementation is inferior in intended performance relative to many brands.

Weird- Do you have evidence that is the case?

I ask because at least one other brands problems are so bad they've had to actually have safety recalls, and Teslas hasn't.... and again this happens to virtually EVERYONE with radar cruise systems...

Autobraking tech will be standard in cars by 2022, but drivers complain of "phantom braking" - The Center for Auto Safety

Nissan-

For Cindy Walsh, getting behind the wheel of her 2018 Nissan Rogue raises her anxiety level. Since she bought the SUV new last October, she told CBS News correspondent Kris Van Cleave it has slammed on the brakes three times for no clear reason when she said there was no risk of a collision.People who regularly use driver-assistance tech are more likely to be distracted”The first one, I was driving down a four-lane highway going about 55 and it completely came to a complete stop

Nissan AND Infinti-
Sudden, phantom braking reported in Nissan and Infiniti vehicles | Beasley Allen Law Firm

class action lawsuit in federal court in Tennessee against Nissan North America, Inc. due to a design defect causing certain 2017-2019 Nissan and Infiniti vehicles to automatically brake with no obstacles in sight – often referred to as phantom braking

There's even a thread on an Audi etron forum about phantom braking!



This. Is. Not. A. Tesla. Specific. Problem.


It's just most likely Tesla will solve (for certain values of solve) it before most will.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Someone should let Elon know, since he said a few days ago (ie months after your video was filmed)






Weird- Do you have evidence that is the case?

I ask because at least one other brands problems are so bad they've had to actually have safety recalls, and Teslas hasn't.... and again this happens to virtually EVERYONE with radar cruise systems...

Autobraking tech will be standard in cars by 2022, but drivers complain of "phantom braking" - The Center for Auto Safety

Nissan-





Nissan AND Infinti-
Sudden, phantom braking reported in Nissan and Infiniti vehicles | Beasley Allen Law Firm




There's even a thread on an Audi etron forum about phantom braking!



This. Is. Not. A. Tesla. Specific. Problem.


It's just most likely Tesla will solve (for certain values of solve) it before most will.

Nissan gonna Nissan..

 

[john5520]

So basically, they're simulating lidar. It's a poor man's lidar, but the technique they're using is impressive given what they have to work with. Superior? We'll have to wait and see. They talk about human vision as being the better approach, but human perception benefited from
millions of years of evolution. How close can the neural net come to matching it? Interesting stuff.

 

[nayr14]

Weird- Do you have evidence that is the case?

This. Is. Not. A. Tesla. Specific. Problem.

Do you have evidence? You didn't present any. I have a qualitative experiment for you:

1. Google ""Audi" phantom braking"
2. Google ""Mercedes" phantom braking"
3. Google ""BMW" phantom braking"
4. Google ""Tesla" phantom braking"

When I google any of those, Tesla comes up first. YET, all those brands have millions more cars on the road with that tech than Tesla, many of them for longer. You can say the Tesla community is more vocal, etc, but there's clearly a severe issue with TACC/AP implementation. I would expect Tesla to have less of these issues than it's competitors because of their tech and how they like to tout how safe their vehicles are.

It makes me wonder if Tesla skimped on their sensor package thinking they could code around it with cameras (like they did with rain sensing wipers) compared to other brands and now we pay the price. We can only hope SW will fix it, unlike the wipers at night.

 

[Knightshade]

Do you have evidence? You didn't present any.

I did actually.

For at least 3 different non-tesla brands...including one so bad it led to a recall, and 2 more so bad they led to a class action lawsuit- none of those being things that have happened to Tesla.


With sources cited and everything.

Versus your total sources of....nothing but telling others to google.

If you're not gonna argue honestly maybe don't argue at all?

 

[nayr14]

If you're not gonna argue honestly maybe don't argue at all?

Ok...

My point was most other brands Tesla competes against have successful implementations of TACC, but Tesla does not. This is a Tesla (and maybe Nissan) problem, the majority of the industry has figured this out.

Hopefully someone files a class action on Tesla, too. It will go straight to the top of the backlog.

 

[Knightshade]

Ok...

My point was most other brands Tesla competes against have successful implementations of TACC, but Tesla does not. This is a Tesla (and maybe Nissan) problem...

And an Infiniti problem...

And an Mazda problem...

Here's a link where they mention it being a problem on Hondas too...
Automatic braking coming, but not all systems are equal

In fact it apparently happens so much in at least one Honda they call it out in the owners manual-

"The CMBS may also activate at times when drivers don't believe it should, and our Owner's Guide provides a few such potential scenarios on pages 520-521.

And Honda ain't the only one who DOCUMENTS that this is EXPECTED BEHAVIOR in some circumstances for their system...here's Lexus doing it-
https://www.lexus.com/documents/safety/Lexus-Safety-System-Plus-062017.pdf

IN THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS, THE SYSTEM MAY INADVERTENTLY OPERATE....

And the very first example they give?

1. In a curve or when the lane width is narrow; if a vehicle from another lane is recognized as that of your lane

And Ford...
https://www.fordservicecontent.com/...-Owners-Manual-version-1_om_EN-US_05_2018.pdf

Mustang manual mentions the system may brake "unexpectedly" again both due to curve issues like Lexus mentions- and also road infrastructure ones like bridges...


in fact, even the LEGENDARY CADDY SUPER CRUSE DOES IT!

https://www.cadillac.com/content/da...percruise/pdfs/2020-cad-ct6-owners-manual.pdf

AEB may automatically brake the vehicle suddenly in situations where it is unexpected and undesired. It could respond to a turning vehicle ahead, guardrails, signs, and other non-moving objects.

In fact, Caddy is so advanced it has multiple systems that all can cause phantom braking!

FPB may alert or automatically brake the vehicle suddenly in situations where it is unexpected and undesired. It could falsely alert or brake for objects similar in shape or size to pedestrians, including shadows. This is normal operation and the vehicle does not need service.

For that one they even call out it might brake for shadows!

And hell- there's a THIRD system that phantom brakes on the Caddy, and it does it in REVERSE!

There may be instances where unexpected or undesired automatic braking occurs. If this happens, either press the brake pedal or firmly press the accelerator pedal to release the brakes from the RAB system.

I expect if I pull up manuals for other brands I'll keep finding the same stuff.


So when you tell us this is primarily a Tesla problem- or that this SAME issue doesn't exist for virtually EVERY radar cruise system out there.... that appears to be... factually untrue

 

[Hamilton C]

My 2018 Model 3 does a similar (to original message) rapid slow down from 55 (the limit) to 30 mph in the exact same place on a road I drive every day.
I have learned to work around it by tapping brake to take off of cruise control, then re-engaging after I pass that location.
There is no change of speed limit, so that does to appear to be factor.
The main road is straight. The Model 3 hits the brakes as it approaches a "Y" turn-off intersection to the right side. I would guess about a 45 to 60 degree angle with the main road. I have noticed a similar problem, with potentially more serious consequences, when I pass some exit ramps on the interstate highways.

I agree that this is a serious problem that is taking far to long to be recognized with a solution from Tesla.

Is there a way to report this type of problem to Tesla by e-mail or text, or some other method? (I do not do Twitter).

 

[Fernand]

@Hamilton C you should do the standard spoken (but concise and brief) report by pressing the right button, starting with "Bug report". Nobody is certain where exactly that goes, if anywhere, but it's a proper first step. Then call them (It's sometimes a challenge, but you CAN find a phone number through the web page. Get a little snack, a footstool, and be prepared to wait on hold. When someone answers, tell them all about it and ask your car to be checked ASAP. That's gonna make waves, because obviously they know they can't send a Ranger out to fix the roadway that's triggering your M3's anomaly. And making waves is good. You don't actually WANT to take your car in, but let them squirm a little, they'll have to log it.

Now, like any experienced and enthusiastic AP/AS/NOA user I can solve your problem in an instant. Don't use the brakes. When you get near that "exact same place on the road", you gently tap the right stalk upwards and drive through that spot. Then double tap the right stalk and resume AP/AS/NOA operation. I'm confident this isn't your case, but I have observed that masochists don't disengage AP in such situations, they enjoy the disruption, especially with a car full of passengers. Everybody gets to tell their grandchildren.
.

 

[Knightshade]

@Hamilton C you should do the standard spoken (but concise and brief) report by pressing the right button, starting with "Bug report". Nobody is certain where exactly that goes, if anywhere,

Yes they are. It goes nowhere.

It stays local to the car.

A service center can remotely access it if you open a service ticket, but otherwise it's never seen by anyone...

 

[Fernand]

Yes they are. It goes nowhere.
It stays local to the car.
A service center can remotely access it if you open a service ticket, but otherwise it's never seen by anyone...

Picky, picky picky. I did say it was a "proper first step". In a world of small steps.
Look at it as a "goodbye cruel world" note. Forensic value.
.

 

[john5520]

My 2018 Model 3 does a similar (to original message) rapid slow down from 55 (the limit) to 30 mph in the exact same place on a road I drive every day.
I have learned to work around it by tapping brake to take off of cruise control, then re-engaging after I pass that location.
There is no change of speed limit, so that does to appear to be factor.
The main road is straight. The Model 3 hits the brakes as it approaches a "Y" turn-off intersection to the right side. I would guess about a 45 to 60 degree angle with the main road. I have noticed a similar problem, with potentially more serious consequences, when I pass some exit ramps on the interstate highways.

I agree that this is a serious problem that is taking far to long to be recognized with a solution from Tesla.

Is there a way to report this type of problem to Tesla by e-mail or text, or some other method? (I do not do Twitter).

It's on Tesla's own forums, so if they're not aware of it by now, I don't know what to say. And I have to echo some of what was mentioned in the threads: it got worse with the more recent updates. I can't remember it being this bad when I first got the car.

The first step to solving a problem is to acknowledge it exists. Sweeping it under the rug or making excuses for it often leads to bigger issues down the road. Bugs are normal, but this is serious.