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Gigacapacitor?

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Exclusive agreements will likely result from this.

Won't happen. Even if it did, Tesla would still be competitive. The company with the exclusive won't have near the capacity to shut the others out, not even VW, GM, or Toyota could satisify near the demand by themselves.

And if a company did come up with super low cost energy storage. Why would they give an exclusive to an auto manufacturer? Why wouldn't they sell to everyone. Mobile phones, tablets, computers, power companies, flashlight manufacturers, military?

History shows that if you do allow your 'battery' technology to go exclusively to an auto manufacturer. They could very well just bury it and never let it see the light of day. No modern 'battery' manufacturer/developer would allow that to happen again. Patent encumbrance of large automotive NiMH batteries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Thanks for your effort, though I think Tesla already knew that if GM could buy battery's at half the cost that Tesla could, they would be in trouble.

Thank you. I don't think they were aware of just how quickly alternatives to Li-ion were developing. Now that they know, I think they will be able to tweak their plans to avoid being locked into betting $6 billion on a likely to be obsolete battery technology. They still need Li-ion batteries, obviously, but don't need to put all their eggs in that one basket.

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Won't happen. Even if it did, Tesla would still be competitive. The company with the exclusive won't have near the capacity to shut the others out, not even VW, GM, or Toyota could satisify near the demand by themselves.

And if a company did come up with super low cost energy storage. Why would they give an exclusive to an auto manufacturer? Why wouldn't they sell to everyone. Mobile phones, tablets, computers, power companies, flashlight manufacturers, military?

History shows that if you do allow your 'battery' technology to go exclusively to an auto manufacturer. They could very well just bury it and never let it see the light of day. No modern 'battery' manufacturer/developer would allow that to happen again. Patent encumbrance of large automotive NiMH batteries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They could have an exclusive with an automaker without excluding other markets. And, part of the agreement could specify that they couldn't bury it without paying a penalty or losing exclusive use of it.
 
Bob if there is one indelible truth in life it is that there are always going to be people that are smarter than you and I. Many of those people work for Tesla and Panasonic. Giant technology companies do not frivolously throw around 5 billion dollars without doing a little research first.
 
They could have an exclusive with an automaker without excluding other markets. And, part of the agreement could specify that they couldn't bury it without paying a penalty or losing exclusive use of it.

Not really. Tesla started making their car buying laptop cells. So they could just buy cells designated for laptop markets.

Besides even if GM had incredibly low cost cells, how are they supposed to meet market demand? Won't happen fast enough to shut out other players.
 
Bob if there is one indelible truth in life it is that there are always going to be people that are smarter than you and I. Many of those people work for Tesla and Panasonic. Giant technology companies do not frivolously throw around 5 billion dollars without doing a little research first.

The investment landscape is littered with examples of giant companies throwing billions of dollars away on poorly-executed acquisitions.

Two examples: ATT bought NCR and sold it later for pennies on the dollar after losing money for a decade. Time-Warner bought AOL and suffered huge losses. The problems usually are that the smart people aren't making the decisions. Or, that smart person makes a mistake. Investing $6 billion is a huge bet which could change the fate of many companies. Elon makes a lot of good decisions, but I believe he's making a mistake if he's putting all that money into one giant Li-ion factory. My fervent hope is that he becomes more cognizant of the viable alternatives which threaten to displace Li-ion in the next three years (when the gigafactory comes online).
 
Bob: where did you come up with an extra billion dollars for this project? I thought it was $5 billion and not all of that is Tesla anyway. It really could just be one of those cases where people who work in this field and heavily research battery technology know more than your average blogger.
 
Not really. Tesla started making their car buying laptop cells. So they could just buy cells designated for laptop markets.

Besides even if GM had incredibly low cost cells, how are they supposed to meet market demand? Won't happen fast enough to shut out other players.

Don't assume the alternative technology would be hard to make. It might be easier, as well as cheaper. From what I know of the capacitor technology I am personally aware of, it will actually be much cheaper than Li-ion to manufacture. We won't know for sure until it's been developed a bit further, though. Right now it's at the hand-made prototype phase.
 
Don't assume the alternative technology would be hard to make. It might be easier, as well as cheaper. From what I know of the capacitor technology I am personally aware of, it will actually be much cheaper than Li-ion to manufacture. We won't know for sure until it's been developed a bit further, though. Right now it's at the hand-made prototype phase.

Not 'battery' production capacity. Vehicle production capacity. Even if GM can make a less expensive EV the Tesla will still compare well to existing ICEs.
 
So in your experience hand made prototype to mass market takes less than three years so Tesla should not build the '6' billion dollar plant until then. Got it.



Where did I make that statement that "Tesla should not build the $6 billion plant"? I didn't. The point I was making was to not bet the farm on current technology. I didn't even suggest delaying building the gigafactory. My point was to be more aware of disruptive technology while making the big bet on Li-ion as the primary (known technology, known uses in vehicles as well as other devices makes it a no-brainer). I've seen the $5-6 billion range mentioned. I always assume that the real figure will be at the higher end of the range. Just like I also assume it will take longer than estimated to accomplish the project.
 
The investment landscape is littered with examples of giant companies throwing billions of dollars away on poorly-executed acquisitions.

Two examples: ATT bought NCR and sold it later for pennies on the dollar after losing money for a decade. Time-Warner bought AOL and suffered huge losses. The problems usually are that the smart people aren't making the decisions. Or, that smart person makes a mistake. Investing $6 billion is a huge bet which could change the fate of many companies. Elon makes a lot of good decisions, but I believe he's making a mistake if he's putting all that money into one giant Li-ion factory. My fervent hope is that he becomes more cognizant of the viable alternatives which threaten to displace Li-ion in the next three years (when the gigafactory comes online).

Given what you said above, what would you do different from what Tesla is currently doing?

Elon's stated goal all along has been to use the Model S success to then ramp production of the Gen 3 car to a mass market. The Gen 3 price point is not achievable unless they get the battery cost down 30% like they plan on doing with the gigafactory. If you don't think they should build a Li-ion gigafactory, then you are also implying that they hold off on the Gen 3, and presumably only sell the Models S and X until some (?) undetermined point in the future, right?

That doesn't seem reasonable to me, as it takes away much of the growth potential of Tesla. Even if a disruptive super-capacitor technology came into the market, there is nothing stopping Tesla from still producing the Gen 3 car at a cost that consumers will pay for. If I can buy a nicely equipped $40,000 - $50,000 electric car that is comparable to a BMW 3 series with a 200 mile range, why would I wait an additional minimum 2-3 years to see if the super-capacitor can cut my electric car purchase price by $5,000 or even $10,000 depending on how super the super-capacitor is?

We are still at a price point where a $5,000 difference will not be the straw that breaks the camels back WRT how many units Tesla can sell. Now, if you were talking about the difference between a $25,000 car and a $20,000 car, then you might have a more valid point, since that is the entry level for cars and a much more sensitive price point. GM and the other dinosaurs may indeed cede the $50,000 car market to Tesla, like they are now losing the battle for the super-premium luxury car, since the Model S is production constrained. If they don't jump into the electric game in a serious manner, they will find themselves making $20,000 entry level ICE cars, and $45,000 pickup trucks, with market share declining from where it is currently. Then once Tesla gets the Gen 3 car line up and running, they will get even more experience and then be able to compete at the lowest price points, especially if gas prices rise for any number of reasons. If the current set of ICE automakers had any sense, you would think they would also realize this, and get on the electric car train before the next war sends gas up to $5 then $10 per gallon.

I have a long list of bookmarks in my browser related to many different tech companies, EEstor being one of the ones that I have periodically checked up on for many years. Like others have posted previously, it seems unlikely that a disruptive technology like super-capacitors could appear on the scene and displace the current best battery technology in anything less than I'm guessing a minimum of 5 years, if not longer. It could happen, but you tend to get jumps like that in the electronics field in things like fiber optic speed, processing speed and storage density, more so than in the physical sciences where you are trying to produce power (solar panels) or store power (batteries, super-capacitors).

No matter what, it's going to be a very interesting ride between now and when the gigafactory gets completed.

RT
 
Not 'battery' production capacity. Vehicle production capacity. Even if GM can make a less expensive EV the Tesla will still compare well to existing ICEs.



Agreed. And GM will likely not be able to make a car as good as Tesla's. However, they could delay Tesla from reaching the mass market. And that could be reflected in the stock price at some point.

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Given what you said above, what would you do different from what Tesla is currently doing?

Elon's stated goal all along has been to use the Model S success to then ramp production of the Gen 3 car to a mass market. The Gen 3 price point is not achievable unless they get the battery cost down 30% like they plan on doing with the gigafactory. If you don't think they should build a Li-ion gigafactory, then you are also implying that they hold off on the Gen 3, and presumably only sell the Models S and X until some (?) undetermined point in the future, right?

No, I think they should build the gigafactory, but in parallel invest in leading alternative technology to supercede the Li-ion battery. This could be included in the gigafactory concept. Gen 3 depends upon lowering battery costs. Currently, they are around $300/kWh from what I've read and getting to $200/kWh is the goal. So, it's going to require a bit more than a 30% reduction in battery costs to get there. And, we're talking three more years, to 2017 for the gigafactory to come online. If there is an alternative battery or capacitor technology available that will surpass Li-ion in the next 3 years, this is the time to invest in it to move it faster toward production. I don't think it will take even 3 years from what I've seen BTW.

That doesn't seem reasonable to me, as it takes away much of the growth potential of Tesla. Even if a disruptive super-capacitor technology came into the market, there is nothing stopping Tesla from still producing the Gen 3 car at a cost that consumers will pay for. If I can buy a nicely equipped $40,000 - $50,000 electric car that is comparable to a BMW 3 series with a 200 mile range, why would I wait an additional minimum 2-3 years to see if the super-capacitor can cut my electric car purchase price by $5,000 or even $10,000 depending on how super the super-capacitor is?

If the capacitor is on the market in 3 years, we're talking about a superior product at a lower price point which undercuts Tesla's costs. That will definitely slow adoption of any Gen 3 car.

We are still at a price point where a $5,000 difference will not be the straw that breaks the camels back WRT how many units Tesla can sell. Now, if you were talking about the difference between a $25,000 car and a $20,000 car, then you might have a more valid point, since that is the entry level for cars and a much more sensitive price point. GM and the other dinosaurs may indeed cede the $50,000 car market to Tesla, like they are now losing the battle for the super-premium luxury car, since the Model S is production constrained. If they don't jump into the electric game in a serious manner, they will find themselves making $20,000 entry level ICE cars, and $45,000 pickup trucks, with market share declining from where it is currently. Then once Tesla gets the Gen 3 car line up and running, they will get even more experience and then be able to compete at the lowest price points, especially if gas prices rise for any number of reasons. If the current set of ICE automakers had any sense, you would think they would also realize this, and get on the electric car train before the next war sends gas up to $5 then $10 per gallon.

From their behavior over the last few decades, the ICE carmakers don't seem to have any sense. Only Tesla seems to have sense so far, but competition can't be discounted completely and somebody might rise up to compete (BYD, for example, in China, where Tesla could win in a huge way by producing a Gen 3 car at an attractive price point).

I have a long list of bookmarks in my browser related to many different tech companies, EEstor being one of the ones that I have periodically checked up on for many years. Like others have posted previously, it seems unlikely that a disruptive technology like super-capacitors could appear on the scene and displace the current best battery technology in anything less than I'm guessing a minimum of 5 years, if not longer. It could happen, but you tend to get jumps like that in the electronics field in things like fiber optic speed, processing speed and storage density, more so than in the physical sciences where you are trying to produce power (solar panels) or store power (batteries, super-capacitors).

This new capacitor has been under development for the past 5 years already. And, the developers have been flying under the radar for the whole time. When it's announced, it will not be a quantum leap in the lab. It will be fully ready for volume production by the time the public hears about it.

No matter what, it's going to be a very interesting ride between now and when the gigafactory gets completed.

RT[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. And I am relieved that Tesla is discussing this internally right now before the final contracts are signed.
 
No, I think they should build the gigafactory, but in parallel invest in leading alternative technology to supercede the Li-ion battery.

The government is funding a fair amount of research, and I wouldn't be surprised if Elon and/or JB Straubel are in personal contact with some of the companies. However, many research projects that are initially promising will get stuck on some very specific problem that turns out to be difficult to solve. Most expect that there will be a new technology sooner or later, it's just that many research projects have to be started in order for one of them to finish successfully. We had many threads on this forum following the research some years ago, and we still do some of that, but the field has become so large that it is difficult to follow based on media articles.

Generally it seems to me that super capacitors are considered to be an ultimate solution, however apparently the assumption is that it will take many more years to develop super caps with a sufficient wh/kg value. Perhaps a bit sooner, but still many years away, there may be Lithium-Air batteries. You might want to take a look at those threads (Forum -> General Forum -> Technical -> Battery Discussion).

As far as direct investments in alternative techs are concerned, GM for example had made such an investment, but had to step back from it because it also got stuck on some specific issue(s). It's easy to waist money in that area when investing in a single specific technology. On the other hand, Nissan has its own battery tech development (also LithiumIon), but it is not exceptional in value.
 
The figure given publicly has always been $4-$5 billion. You're the first person I've seen mention $6 billion.
he found a misstake in Elon cost calculation so the actually cost are $6 billion for the factory.
Obviously its secret where the other billion is coming from, he can contact Elon and tell him that it will cost $1 Billion more then he expected but not why since that is secret.
 
As far as direct investments in alternative techs are concerned, GM for example had made such an investment, but had to step back from it because it also got stuck on some specific issue(s). It's easy to waist money in that area when investing in a single specific technology. On the other hand, Nissan has its own battery tech development (also LithiumIon), but it is not exceptional in value.

It turns out that the technology was fraudulent from the beginning. GM simply bought a pig in a poke.