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Glass is more than half full... PV+ESS is the bomb.

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,657
490
auburn, ca
Also, h2of, I didn't see whether you have an EV. I have three PWs and two EVs (a Model 3 and eGolf).

Since the car capacity is 100Kwh and the batteries are only 40, given some reasonable amount of driving I can cycle them easily.

Without EVs 65Kwh of PWs is not as easy to cycle.

You could also spend a couple thou on an electrically heated jacuzzi. That would solve it. :)

I have one of those as well. Ha!
I do not have any EV's. Yep with EV's, ev2-a is the way to go, and cycling batteries would be a cake walk. Just not what I have. :(
 

Southpasfan

Member
Jun 2, 2019
454
578
Pasadena
Yep, for 5 years
I have signed up for SGIP but probably won't get it.

By the way, is it "total ESS storage is 65kwh times 52 = 3,380, so you need to show charging of at least 3,380 and discharging of 3,380" per year?

Or, is it, we have to seem them run up to 100% and down to 0% 52 times?

Both equal 3,380 but the second would be harder to do depending on weather.

I have charged them up to 100% many times, I have not actually run them to zero ever.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,657
490
auburn, ca
You wont have any issue cycling your batteries the required number of times, especially since you are enjoying being "off the electrical grid" since your install. That part of your complaint is really a non issue, but until you see it for yourself (after an entire year) you likely wont believe anyone else that says different.

Sort of similar to the different opinion it appears you have about powerwalls from when you started participating here till now, you will find that this is really not that much of an issue. You will set your reserves in winter to a higher number than they are now (or not, because you dont have to worry about "resiliency" because you have a generator), and you wont be in any way, shape or form screwed on anything.
We just have a different opinion. I can be off grid now, when I am producing 100kwh of solar per day, and at the moment, no AC or heat, so my use is WAY down. But in winter, when I use 60kwh, and produce 5 from solar, well, I will have no batteries if I use. And then no power outage protection, so I will have to not use the batteries at all. It is only the ev2-a rate plan, when I have no EV's, is the issue for me. Again, since most have gas heat, these folks will never understand.

Since 99% of the folks with batteries got the ITC, charging from the grid is not legal. But for the few who got via ER, not did not take ITC, it is legal to charge from Grid via PGE and SGIP rules.

Oh well, ...
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,820
1,195
East Bay NorCal
I have signed up for SGIP but probably won't get it.

By the way, is it "total ESS storage is 65kwh times 52 = 3,380, so you need to show charging of at least 3,380 and discharging of 3,380" per year?

Or, is it, we have to seem them run up to 100% and down to 0% 52 times?

Both equal 3,380 but the second would be harder to do depending on weather.

I have charged them up to 100% many times, I have not actually run them to zero ever.


It's the 3,380 you described. You don't actually have to run the battery down to 0; you just have to cycle the equivalent kWh as if you did.

On the large-scale SGIP the cycling is 104 times ... fun fun.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,657
490
auburn, ca
I have signed up for SGIP but probably won't get it.

By the way, is it "total ESS storage is 65kwh times 52 = 3,380, so you need to show charging of at least 3,380 and discharging of 3,380" per year?

Or, is it, we have to seem them run up to 100% and down to 0% 52 times?

Both equal 3,380 but the second would be harder to do depending on weather.

I have charged them up to 100% many times, I have not actually run them to zero ever.
It is the total for 52 weeks. So you could do in 1 week for the entire year, or 52 weeks equally, or anything in between. One never needs to discharge to 0.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,657
490
auburn, ca
It's the 3,380 you described. You don't actually have to run the battery down to 0; you just have to cycle the equivalent kWh as if you did.

On the large-scale SGIP the cycling is 104 times ... fun fun.
So you have to do the 104 per year, for 5 years. You large scale guy, you never do anything small :)
 
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miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,347
6,038
Los Altos, CA
We just have a different opinion. I can be off grid now, when I am producing 100kwh of solar per day, and at the moment, no AC or heat, so my use is WAY down. But in winter, when I use 60kwh, and produce 5 from solar, well, I will have no batteries if I use. And then no power outage protection, so I will have to not use the batteries at all. It is only the ev2-a rate plan, when I have no EV's, is the issue for me. Again, since most have gas heat, these folks will never understand.

Since 99% of the folks with batteries got the ITC, charging from the grid is not legal. But for the few who got via ER, not did not take ITC, it is legal to charge from Grid via PGE and SGIP rules.

Oh well, ...
In the Winter, most people are solar generation limited, whether heating with electric or not. I just decide how much Reserve I need based on season and let the Powerwalls do their thing. From November to February, I can't make it through Peak before hitting the Reserve and pulling from the grid at the crazy EV2-A rate. That's just how it is. Letting the batteries drain more on any given day is not worth it because Winter solar is so limited, there's no opportunity to catch up again. Sure, Off-Peak grid charging would allow us to shift more energy into Peak, but that's just not how it works.
 

Southpasfan

Member
Jun 2, 2019
454
578
Pasadena
It is the total for 52 weeks. So you could do in 1 week for the entire year, or 52 weeks equally, or anything in between. One never needs to discharge to 0.
Unless the system is massively oversized for your house, it should not be a problem. Your system may produce like 20,000 to 25,000 kwh per year.

All you need is like 15% of that to go to the PWs and then use it. Plus, in the winter, if using your 20kwh is just using it, it won't matter that its winter, plus, of course you can keep most of your 5 PWs in reserve. All you need to do is average 20Kwy for 200 days (200 nights, technically) and you will be way over. You won't even need the 165 shortest/cloudiest days of the year.

Its actually easier to do in the winter when nights are longer.

By "easier" I mean "easier to use whatever max you want to use" from your PWs.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,657
490
auburn, ca
In the Winter, most people are solar generation limited, whether heating with electric or not. I just decide how much Reserve I need based on season and let the Powerwalls do their thing. From November to February, I can't make it through Peak before hitting the Reserve and pulling from the grid at the crazy EV2-A rate. That's just how it is. Letting the batteries drain more on any given day is not worth it because Winter solar is so limited, there's no opportunity to catch up again. Sure, Off-Peak grid charging would allow us to shift more energy into Peak, but that's just not how it works.
If you are ITC, then yep. But legally, which we probably are not, ER legally does not work that way, tesla is just ignoring, so yep, I guess technically I have very poor tesla customer service also.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,657
490
auburn, ca
Unless the system is massively oversized for your house, it should not be a problem. Your system may produce like 20,000 to 25,000 kwh per year.

All you need is like 15% of that to go to the PWs and then use it. Plus, in the winter, if using your 20kwh is just using it, it won't matter that its winter, plus, of course you can keep most of your 5 PWs in reserve. All you need to do is average 20Kwy for 200 days (200 nights, technically) and you will be way over. You won't even need the 165 shortest/cloudiest days of the year.

Its actually easier to do in the winter when nights are longer.

By "easier" I mean "easier to use whatever max you want to use" from your PWs.
Yep, But I have written to SGIP, PGE, and Tesla with the legal reasons I should be allowed to grid charge. So if they come after me for some reason, I can say but ...
 

Southpasfan

Member
Jun 2, 2019
454
578
Pasadena
By the way (cause if anywhere is the place for total at random observations, this is the place) it makes no sense that it should be ITC or Grid Charge.

Grid Charging shifts the load in exactly the way it should. The solution to brownouts or rolling blackouts is technically battery storage, not more solar production.

We tend to get drawn down the rabbit hole of how to best work the system so as not to be overcharged.

However, that blows right by the point that high peak charges are totally arbitrary, and if anything bear little relation to the cost of electricity and total relation to incentivizing users to conserve energy. PWs are functionally the same as conserving energy. You really notice that when you see them charged up by the Sun.
 

getakey

Active Member
Jan 28, 2020
1,309
428
95762
it is 13.5kWh X 5 X 52 = 3510kWh which needs to be cycled.
How does anyone other than you and Tesla know if you discharge the PW? Is it a requirement of the program to give the data to them once a year?
I still don't see how it would be a problem. You will probably use that much from the PWs in the summer. ~100 days of cycling PWs to 50% will meet the requirement
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,820
1,195
East Bay NorCal
it is 13.5kWh X 5 X 52 = 3510kWh which needs to be cycled.
How does anyone other than you and Tesla know if you discharge the PW? Is it a requirement of the program to give the data to them once a year?
I still don't see how it would be a problem. You will probably use that much from the PWs in the summer. ~100 days of cycling PWs to 50% will meet the requirement


Lol yeah since we're splitting hairs, the SGIP folks view the PW2 as a 13.2 kWh battery; so it's 3,432 kWh of cycling haha.
 

BGbreeder

Member
Jun 19, 2020
289
176
Bay Area
it is 13.5kWh X 5 X 52 = 3510kWh which needs to be cycled.
How does anyone other than you and Tesla know if you discharge the PW? Is it a requirement of the program to give the data to them once a year?
I still don't see how it would be a problem. You will probably use that much from the PWs in the summer. ~100 days of cycling PWs to 50% will meet the requirement
Great question: how does anyone know? Does Tesla report the energy out of the batteries as a proxy for "discharge to the grid"? Just curious...
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
9,488
10,670
Riverside Co. CA
Great question: how does anyone know? Does Tesla report the energy out of the batteries as a proxy for "discharge to the grid"? Just curious...

Thats a good question. @holeydonut notwithstanding (because PGE is going to spin up a department and hire 10 employees to keep tabs on his export, we all know this :cool: :) ), I remember something in the powerwall stuff somewhere saying that it would tell you if you were not on track to meet your cycling requirement. Because I use self powered, and have 2 batteries, there is virtually no chance of me missing it.

Here is the blurb I remember, which can be found here:


(for anyone who saw this right after I posted it, I had the wrong pic in there. I added the correct pic)
===================================
teslaandsgip.JPG


====================================
(@holeydonut , i am laughing / crying with you, not trying to pile on. )
 

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holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,820
1,195
East Bay NorCal
Thats a good question. @holeydonut notwithstanding (because PGE is going to spin up a department and hire 10 employees to keep tabs on his export, we all know this :cool: :) ), I remember something in the powerwall stuff somewhere saying that it would tell you if you were not on track to meet your cycling requirement. Because I use self powered, and have 2 batteries, there is virtually no chance of me missing it.


Lol I think PG&E is just going to have someone camp outside my house and make sure the batteries are in use.

BTW, Tesla was supposed to send some data proving my usage to PG&E's SGIP department. They said this about 3 weeks ago but so far I haven't heard anything from PG&E.

I hope any time PG&E requires proof of the cycling over the next 5 years, Tesla will be able to produce it.
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
9,488
10,670
Riverside Co. CA
Lol I think PG&E is just going to have someone camp outside my house and make sure the batteries are in use.

BTW, Tesla was supposed to send some data proving my usage to PG&E's SGIP department. They said this about 3 weeks ago but so far I haven't heard anything from PG&E.

I hope any time PG&E requires proof of the cycling over the next 5 years, Tesla will be able to produce it.

I havent been asked about this once (by Tesla, or SCE), and my batteries were installed Jan 6th of 2020. With that being said, I only have 2, and since I am using self powered mode, have no issues with meeting any threshholds. For the month of april, for example, the tesla app shows that I have gotten "429 kWh from Powerwall" . Assuming that blurb on teslas own website is correct, and its 687 per year, per powerwall thats 1374 for my two powerwalls.

For 2021 the tesla app reports I have used "1313kWh from powerwall", so will meet my yearly total before the month is up. For 2021 so far, it appears I have used more power from my powerwalls (1313kWh) than from the grid (1263kWh) and have also sent 1475kWh to the grid during 2021.

Since this is the "I love my solar + ESS" thread, I will say again "I love my solar + ess!" Now excuse me while I head out to the garage to stare lovingly at my powerwalls.....
 

MJ_CA_2019

Member
Aug 19, 2020
148
37
Central CA
Lol yeah since we're splitting hairs, the SGIP folks view the PW2 as a 13.2 kWh battery; so it's 3,432 kWh of cycling haha.
In 2020 my Tesla App reports 5102 kWh from Power Wall.
(I don't remember when I switched, but I wasn't on advanced all year so part of the year was self powered)
In 2021 so far we have used 1776 kWh from Power Wall.

I have zero concerns about the cycling requirements.
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,820
1,195
East Bay NorCal
In 2020 my Tesla App reports 5102 kWh from Power Wall.
(I don't remember when I switched, but I wasn't on advanced all year so part of the year was self powered)
In 2021 so far we have used 1776 kWh from Power Wall.

I have zero concerns about the cycling requirements.


Yeah, I'm a bit closer to the cutoff. I need to cycle each battery 104 times per year (so I've been told). With three batteries x 13.2 kWh x 104 = 4,118.4 kWh per year. I've only consumed 1,876 kWh from my Powerwalls so far. But I suspect once the ACs are blasting I'm going to fly through that number.

But the best part is I have used 0 kWh of utility energy during peak time. WHhooooooooo
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
9,488
10,670
Riverside Co. CA
Yeah, I'm a bit closer to the cutoff. I need to cycle each battery 104 times per year (so I've been told). With three batteries x 13.2 kWh x 104 = 4,118.4 kWh per year. I've only consumed 1,876 kWh from my Powerwalls so far. But I suspect once the ACs are blasting I'm going to fly through that number.

But the best part is I have used 0 kWh of utility energy during peak time. WHhooooooooo

Teslas own information on their website (which I grabbed a screenshot of above) says that the requirement is 687kWh per powerwall. The batteries supposedly have to be cycled 52 times a year each, not each battery 104 times a year. Any chance you got the number "104 times a year" from when you were looking at 2 powerwalls and into applying for the SGIP yourself?

I obviously dont know what you were told or saw, but requirement should be 52 times a year per battery (13.2 X 52 = 686.4, or pretty much exactly the "687" on teslas website).

I am fairly confident your requirement is 687 X 3, or 2059, and you are already 1876kWh used so have almost met the requirement and will by the end of june for sure.
 
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