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Glass rear window and sedan/liftback discussion

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Not at all. I'm saying you'll have a ton of storage room, but it won't be practically accessible. Model S has a ton of storage room and a huge access point so you can fill up that huge space with huge things. Model 3 has huge space and a tiny access point, so you're limited to lots of tiny things. I can't think of what I'd be able to load up a Model 3 with to max out and take advantage of that storage capacity. Can you?
My mothly trip to Costco Wholesale for one thing.

After the first reveal a year ago I did some informal side by side comparisons of the Model 3 trunk and my wife's Hyundai Sonata. They appeared to be almost identical. We don't have any problem with the Sonata...I don't anticipate any issues with the Model 3.

Dan
 
Not at all. I'm saying you'll have a ton of storage room, but it won't be practically accessible. Model S has a ton of storage room and a huge access point so you can fill up that huge space with huge things. Model 3 has huge space and a tiny access point, so you're limited to lots of tiny things. I can't think of what I'd be able to load up a Model 3 with to max out and take advantage of that storage capacity. Can you?
The trunk opening seems to be about the same as my Corolla. I've not had any issues getting anything I needed to carry in or out or that so I really don't think I'll have any issues with the model 3. Most of it managing expectations, I know what I can and can't get into my Corolla so I don't go expecting to load things that I know won't fit.

In my day to day life, I rarely have to load larger items. If someone, in their regular life needs to do that, then a sedan with a trunk is probably not the car for them.
 
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We all know the software isn't there, but how do you know the hardware isn't there?
I'm not arguing the hardware isn't there. The hardware has been here for years now. Many are concerned however that the lack of LIDAR may hurt Tesla long-term.

The software is by far the larger hurdle. It's not there regardless of the hardware used, and it may be possible that Tesla's setup is adequate for self-driving. What Tesla doesn't know is if they'll run into road blocks in the future that the hardware can't surpass. I know they've said it's not necessary, but how can they be so sure when they haven't cracked Level 5 yet? This is true for everybody in the race to L5, but LIDAR gives a better fighting chance. Tesla is playing on hard mode and saying they'll beat the game faster than anybody else and do so with more health and higher game completion % at the end. All this coming from a company who has been working on self-driving the least amount of time compared to everybody else. I'd actually be worried if you weren't skeptical.

I've no doubt that Tesla can do it. They're an amazing company doing amazing things, but the question is when? And how "good" will their L5 be? Something tells me that LIDAR may be necessary for the most extreme weather conditions. You can't develop a self-driving suite that can only handle 99.99% of driving conditions. It has to be 100%. And 100% is an incredibly scary number. Honestly I'm not sure anybody will get to 100% in our lifetimes, no matter what hardware they're using. Computers can't even reliably stay on 100% of the time. I think human intervention will still be required, no matter how minimal.

That aside, with all these questions remaining, Tesla should not be designing cars for software that doesn't exist (yet). Model S is a great "in between" vehicle, comfortable for both autonomous and manual driving. Model 3 may not be as comfortable as it could be for manual driving, which is how most people will use the car. You can't forget all the people who don't want to shell out the big bones for Autopilot and instead want to contribute to Tesla's actual mission statement of accelerating sustainable transport. Many people will never use Autopilot unless it's included in the price, which is highly unlikely. It's a shame Model 3 couldn't be designed with both manual and autonomous driving in mind. The single central screen is basically a "good enough" measure for when autonomy isn't an option.

You are simply making an argument of trunk vs hatchback.... nothing new here. As far as cars with trunks go, Model 3 will be superior, end of story. :)
Except the trunk opening is slightly smaller than traditional sedans, which limits its usefulness when compared to competing sedans. So the extra cargo space won't be as accessible. It's a tease. So much more room but no way to get in there! But this has been discussed ad nauseam already so I'm done if you are.
 
The trunk opening seems to be about the same as my Corolla. I've not had any issues getting anything I needed to carry in or out or that so I really don't think I'll have any issues with the model 3. Most of it managing expectations, I know what I can and can't get into my Corolla so I don't go expecting to load things that I know won't fit.

In my day to day life, I rarely have to load larger items. If someone, in their regular life needs to do that, then a sedan with a trunk is probably not the car for them.
The trunk opening really doesn't bother me tbh because I don't transport huge stuff frequently. I'm just saying that touting a bunch of cargo space as a feature is misleading because realistically you won't be using it. You know what fits in your Corolla. Do you expect to be fitting more stuff in your Model 3 because it has more "cargo space"? Probably not unless your idea of cargo utilization is something like this:

Trashed-Cars-7-trash-filled-car.png
 
What makes you confident of this? It seems to me a vast majority of those who complained about the trunk do not currently own compact sedan, and those that do generally seem to think it's on par with what they are used to.
It seemed small to me, but trunks aren't much of a concern when I go car shopping. I was mostly gauging that off the community response. It has been resoundingly obvious that public perception of the trunk opening is "small", ranging from numerous topics on here to tweets to Elon. There's really no debating that.
 
It seemed small to me, but trunks aren't much of a concern when I go car shopping. I was mostly gauging that off the community response. It has been resoundingly obvious that public perception of the trunk opening is "small", ranging from numerous topics on here to tweets to Elon. There's really no debating that.
That was reaction to prototypes 1 year ago. Tesla took this seriously and said they would look to enlarge. Nobody on this forum (except maybe some under NDA) know the size of the current opening. So you cannot say with confidence it IS small. Just that it WAS small on prototype.
 
That was reaction to prototypes 1 year ago. Tesla took this seriously and said they would look to enlarge. Nobody on this forum (except maybe some under NDA) know the size of the current opening. So you cannot say with confidence it IS small. Just that it WAS small on prototype.
Yes, but we can make assumptions based on pictures. The back looks largely the same. There won't be any surprises when the new trunk is opened the first time like "OMG THE ENTIRE BACKSIDE OF THE CAR WHEELS AND ALL LIFTS OFF THE GROUND TO REVEAL A TRUNK OPENING HALF THE SIZE OF THE CAR"

Unless the whole car is scaled up a couple percent, I don't really see any evidence of the trunk opening changing. All we can do is speculate right now, but it's not ungrounded speculation. We're making realistic observations comparing pictures at similar angles of two purportedly different cars, and not much difference has been noticed. Anybody expecting a drastic change in trunk opening will be disappointed.
 
Yes, but we can make assumptions based on pictures. The back looks largely the same. There won't be any surprises when the new trunk is opened the first time like "OMG THE ENTIRE BACKSIDE OF THE CAR WHEELS AND ALL LIFTS OFF THE GROUND TO REVEAL A TRUNK OPENING HALF THE SIZE OF THE CAR"

Unless the whole car is scaled up a couple percent, I don't really see any evidence of the trunk opening changing. All we can do is speculate right now, but it's not ungrounded speculation. We're making realistic observations comparing pictures at similar angles of two purportedly different cars, and not much difference has been noticed. Anybody expecting a drastic change in trunk opening will be disappointed.

But I don't think it needs a big change. In fact, without having seen it in person I'm not sure whether it needs a change at all. In some pictures it looks just as useable and perhaps a bit bigger than competing trunk openings, in others it looks slightly more awkward to put things in. Most people complaining about it have never seen it in person either. Pictures are very deceptive about such things.
 
Maybe Model 3 truly is a magical car. It seems to look different in every picture already. No doubt there's hammer space inside the trunk, but what's the magical equivalent to a trunk opening? I can see it now, you approach the car with your awkward-shaped chair and gently press it against the edges of the seal. An "oh shi--" moment washes over you as you realize it won't fit, at which point you black out and regain consciousness in the driver's seat already on route to your destination with the chair safely stowed in the trunk.

A chair you can fit in the back of a 3 series sedan?
 
The trunk opening really doesn't bother me tbh because I don't transport huge stuff frequently. I'm just saying that touting a bunch of cargo space as a feature is misleading because realistically you won't be using it. You know what fits in your Corolla. Do you expect to be fitting more stuff in your Model 3 because it has more "cargo space"? Probably not unless your idea of cargo utilization is something like this:

Trashed-Cars-7-trash-filled-car.png
Why is "touting a bunch of cargo space as a feature" misleading? Some people use, I know I will. And yes, if the model 3 has more cargo space than my Corolla then I would certainly expect to fit more stuff in it. That's the way "more" works.

But what if he's wrong? Isn't it at all concerning that everybody else in the industry doesn't share his sentiment? He's not a miracle worker has been known to stretch ideas and concepts beyond realistic or practical limits. Hell, he just recently admitted that Model 3's production line will be about the same as current production lines. None of this "alien dreadnought" stuff, just a regular production line with regular technology making cars at regular speeds compared to competitors.

I can see him backpeddling similarly ten years down the road when he introduces AP3 with LIDAR because AP2 isn't cutting it.
If he's wrong he's wrong and he'll admit it, and move on. He just saying that right now he doesn't think it's necessary. They are still testing it and collecting data, there is every chance that they'll analyze the data and determine that they do need something else. That's why they do the testing and don't just ship the cars out and say "ok, we're done".

And alien dreadnought thing was never intended to apply to the initial model 3 production line. It is what he is expecting in, I think, another year or two.

Maybe Model 3 truly is a magical car. It seems to look different in every picture already. No doubt there's hammer space inside the trunk, but what's the magical equivalent to a trunk opening? I can see it now, you approach the car with your awkward-shaped chair and gently press it against the edges of the seal. An "oh shi--" moment washes over you as you realize it won't fit, at which point you black out and regain consciousness in the driver's seat already on route to your destination with the chair safely stowed in the trunk.
Why would anyone expect to transport any sort of large or awkwardly shaped chair in a sedan with a trunk to begin with? People that are upset over the fact that it isn't a hatchback because they won't be able to carry all the stuff they normally carry should not be looking at the model 3 as their car. No one can build a car that is perfect for everyone, and if the car really won't for someone then they shouldn't lament the fact, they should go find a car that better suites their needs.
 
Why is "touting a bunch of cargo space as a feature" misleading? Some people use, I know I will. And yes, if the model 3 has more cargo space than my Corolla then I would certainly expect to fit more stuff in it. That's the way "more" works.
I'm not sure you're understanding. Do you really plan to put more stuff in it? Usually the allure of more cargo space in a car is so you can fit bigger things in there. My point is that there's only so many small things one uses day to day, and not much reason to want to transport a LOT of small things around. Maybe moving boxes? As long as they're small enough. And if you're moving and don't have a vehicle that can transport large objects, you'll probably just get a Uhaul instead and put everything in there. What would you use the extra cargo space for?


If he's wrong he's wrong and he'll admit it, and move on. He just saying that right now he doesn't think it's necessary. They are still testing it and collecting data, there is every chance that they'll analyze the data and determine that they do need something else. That's why they do the testing and don't just ship the cars out and say "ok, we're done".
It's kind of irresponsible to make promises you're not sure you can keep, isn't it? Saying stuff and admitting you're wrong all the time isn't exactly good business practice nor does it make investors feel warm and fuzzy. I would assume Elon and Tesla are 100% confident in their hardware setup. That's fine. What's worrying is nobody else in the industry is confident in that setup. What is Tesla doing that's so amazing and revolutionary that they can take short cuts like this? Elon talks big about a lot of stuff Tesla does, but so far it's been demonstrated that they're a mostly normal company manufacturing normal things in a normal way.

That's why they do the testing and don't just ship the cars out and say "ok, we're done".
Didn't they do just this with Model S? Hell, they still can't make them properly in 2017. People still talk about taking delivery of P100Ds with misaligned roofs, cracked glass, and misaligned body panels (classic). And what vehicle has ever required multiple drive unit replacements at launch?

But you're right. That's why they do the testing. To make sure it works. If anything, they learned that lesson with Model S. Oh but wait, they're skipping that part with Model 3. I'm very interested in these "advanced analytical techniques" that will let Tesla skip the beta phase. They botched the Model S launch, and if not for the car being so spectacular when it worked, Tesla would've been in trouble. Model 3 is decidedly less spectacular than Model S, as noted by Elon himself, so we'll see if the public is as forgiving.

And alien dreadnought thing was never intended to apply to the initial model 3 production line. It is what he is expecting in, I think, another year or two.
He said Model 3 would not be alien dreadnought status. He said that's what Model Y's production line is going to be. And what's more bizarre is that Model Y is supposed to be based on the same platform as Model 3. Nobody in the industry thus far has created a whole new production line to make a car that's based on another car. They just use the existing production line. That's the whole point of creating multiple cars on the same platform. This among other things revealed at Tesla's earnings yesterday is part of the reason the stock tanked today. Musk basically admitted that there is nothing special about how Model 3 is being built. Oh but just wait til you see Model Y!
 
No, not anymore. It'll be a totally different, even more simple, platform.

All this talk reminds me that I'm in the process of moving and all my stuff doesn't fit in the back of my Prius (a hatchback of course) I need a moving truck anyway. I guess the same would happen with a standard or larger than standard trunk...

I bet if I had a Model S I'd still need a moving truck as well. Unless it fits couches and such. o_O
I just moved this past weekend! The ladyfriend has a Prius and it was a huge help actually. We used the truck for couches and the like, but started moving small stuff a few days earlier and the Prius was prime for the mini fridge and a few large square tables that wouldn't fit in any trunk or rear door.
 
I hesitate to mention this, since we seem to be getting quite off topic, but in my experience the size of the trunk opening isn't the biggest obstacle if you plan on transporting bulky stuff. It's the size of the opening between the trunk and the back seat, and how well the seats fold out of the way.

Yes, and as far as we know when Elon talked about fixing the trunk opening he was referring to improvements inside not the actual trunk size opening.
But like everything else in this thread all we can do is speculate. Only time will tell. More mule sightings please!
 
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Yes, and as far as we know when Elon talked about fixing the trunk opening he was referring to improvements inside not the actual trunk size opening.
But like everything else in this thread all we can do is speculate. Only time will tell. More mule sightings please!
The tweets Elon made were in response to opening size explicitly:

"@nickg_uk
but bigger trunk opening for Model 3? That's the most important thing.

@elonmusk
already taken care of"
Elon Musk on Twitter
 
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The tweets Elon made were in response to opening size explicitly:

"@nickg_uk
but bigger trunk opening for Model 3? That's the most important thing.

@elonmusk
already taken care of"
Elon Musk on Twitter

I'm going to give Elon a little leeway on this. If you recall he tweeted immediately after the reveal they were working on improving the trunk. Since the mules do not appear to show any improvement from the outside there is certainly a good chance the improvements Elon tweeted about were made to the inside of the car. Otherwise what was he referring too?