TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Glass rear window and sedan/liftback discussion

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by phil0909, Mar 30, 2017.

Tags:
  1. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2016
    Messages:
    1,616
    Location:
    Florida, USA
    Quite simply, I think you're right. Had they accomplished both, do I think the end result vehicle would've been better all-around then the current 3? I don't know (in particular, would aesthetics still be similar or reduced?).

    I'm pretty happy with the structural design of the car, however. I don't have anything (helpful) to say to those who are upset about the trunk.
     
  2. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2016
    Messages:
    1,616
    Location:
    Florida, USA
    I don't think there's anything stopping Tesla, in the future, from offering hatchback variants of the 3. But that's in the future. Likely after the completion of Part Deux. I happen to think Tesla should offer a 3 hatchback, and even a 2-door coupe and/or hatchback. I realize hatchbacks are big internationally and that a vehicle even smaller than the 3 might be prime for poorer countries like India, etc. But I think Tesla is right in trying to get the basic vehicle models to market before offering multiple variants of each.

    Yes. The instrumentation in the 3 is puzzling, to say the least. The overall interior/dash better be top notch and premium feeling, even if it's just a steering wheel and a touchscreen. If it looks exactly like the initial reveal interior, I'm not sure I could go through with my purchase. That is a b.s. interior for a base 35k car.
     
  3. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    9,454
    #43 stopcrazypp, Mar 31, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
    Some hatchbacks are called crossovers on purpose. My point was Americans do not want hatchbacks, they want crossovers. That's why you see automakers marketing a hatchback as a crossover (sometimes adding a couple inches of ride height), but never the other way around.

    That's why a Model 3 hatch may not necessarily be popular, while the Model Y crossover is likely to be popular.
     
  4. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    9,454
    That shape would be a traditional hatchback (meaning it does not slope down to have the sedan/coupe-like lines that the Model 3 has).

    So something like an A3 hatchback maybe. However, A3 sales were mediocre in America before they introduced the sedan in 2014. American's impression of the traditional hatchback body is still cheapness (a bad fit for a premium market), and I'm pretty sure Tesla did not want to go that route.

    The other way is like the Model X, using a much taller roofline, but still using the slope. However, that is aerodynamically poor (which is contrary to the range vs price equation) and puts it closer to a crossover (it doesn't look good either IMO).
     
    • Helpful x 1
    • Like x 1
  5. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2014
    Messages:
    9,451
    Location:
    EU
    I am not convinced a middle-ground would not have been possible, but I am happy to agree to disagree on that if that is what our views come down to. But I will just try to explain a bit more carefully what I had in mind:

    I am not suggesting making Model 3 a traditional hatchback, mind you. What I am suggesting would have been optimal, would have been making it just like Model S, which I guess in Europe is often known as a sportback - a coupeish hatchback, that can - for U.S. purposes - be called a sedan. When Tesla has a limited line-up, a generalist model like that can appeal not just sedan customers, but also those hatchback/stationwagon customers, yet look sporty enough for a coupe customer who abhors traditional sedans... Model S is genius.

    I get it that rear headroom is a consideration in both Model S and Model 3, but that does not demand taking the shape all the way to the back like in an Audi A3 hatchback. Model 3 is a much larger car than an Audi A3, where size is at a premium. Extending the roof a bit to allow for a support structure behind the passengers' heads and making rear window smaller and lower would IMO have accommodated a good-sized rear hatch.

    I have to agree with some posters. Elon/Tesla wanted their big back window and got it - the hatch got sacrificed in that process. That is my guess.
     
  6. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2014
    Messages:
    9,451
    Location:
    EU
    I agree hatchbacks are not popular in the U.S. That is why Model S is called a sedan there, when technically it is a hatchback.

    That is why IMO the Model 3 "hatchback" idea hinges (no pun intended) on it being just like Model S. A hatchback in disguise.

    That would have covered so many more buyer groups...
     
  7. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2014
    Messages:
    9,451
    Location:
    EU
    Indeed, what if Model 3 would just have been a smaller, cheaper Model S - a Model 3 that looks like a sporty coupe (or a shapely sedan), but has massive cargo capacity for its class through being a hatchback in disguise like Model S. Or a Model X that is just a tall, big Model S, where all the seats in the house folded and the car got launched years(s) earlier with a nice panoramic roof - and maybe even that Model S -like glass roof option for those who are so inclined.

    These would have been the mainstream, great, great car interpretations of Model S for the smaller and SUV classes. And especially in the case of the Model X so much easier to design and build. Instead it seems we got ourselves a couple of weirdmobiles that will to some extent limit their appeal (granted, Model X is more the weirdmobile).

    I wouldn't count on it. :) They seem to have decided to be a weirdmobile company, after the detour that was the Model S. I am half expecting falcon wing doors on a five-seater. And a glass bonnet.
     
  8. tomas

    tomas Only partially psycho

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    3,571
    Location:
    Chicago/Montecito
    I do. Let's see final trunk size and opening before we dismiss it.

    PS doesn't the 3 have a frunk too?
     
  9. Laban

    Laban Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2016
    Messages:
    173
    Location:
    Sweden
    They could perhaps have made a BMW 320 GT type of shape:

    [​IMG]
    But it's both longer (5.8m, 20 cm longer then the sedan) and higher then the regular 320 sedan, i'm guessing to get great headroom in the back together with the hatchback configuration. That doesn't sound like a good recipe if Tesla want to keep the costs down and meet the 35000$ target. Something that they don't need to do with the Model Y (i'm guessing +5k $ minimum).
     
    • Helpful x 1
    • Disagree x 1
  10. zenmaster

    zenmaster Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2016
    Messages:
    964
    Location:
    Atlanta
    What is the market for a 20% smaller model S with 10-20% reduction in price? I'd buy something like that if they could pull it off.
     
  11. cdub

    cdub Future Model 3 owner / Current original Leaf owner

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2014
    Messages:
    591
    Location:
    Glendale, CA
    But it will simplify production at first and allow the cheapest model 3 to be produced first... which is a good thing when you're releasing the EV for the mainstream.

    You don't want news reports of "The model 3 is just another car for rich people" and "it's not really 35k")
     
  12. cdub

    cdub Future Model 3 owner / Current original Leaf owner

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2014
    Messages:
    591
    Location:
    Glendale, CA
    Sorry but I think that car is pretty ugly. :(
     
  13. Laban

    Laban Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2016
    Messages:
    173
    Location:
    Sweden
    I actually don't think that it's that bad. Not sure that i wan't Tesla to go this way with the Model 3 though, or Model Y for that matter. I want a regular SUV like hatchback, something like the VW Tiguan:

    [​IMG] ¨

    5.7m long, seats 7. Would be thrilled if Tesla did something like that with the Model Y.

    That's why i prefer the Model 3 as it is, keep it simple...
     
  14. phil0909

    phil0909 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2016
    Messages:
    442
    Location:
    California
    What we're getting instead is Model 3, which is estimated to be about 10% smaller than Model S, at a price 50% lower than Model S. I have no idea how they achieve the 50% lower price, but sign me up! Even though the form factor isn't ideal, what with the goofy giant rear window and smallish trunk opening, it is a great price for a nice looking, compact, high-performing electric car. Assuming they can do it...
     
  15. ohmman

    ohmman Maximum Plaid Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Messages:
    8,379
    Location:
    North Bay, CA
    One concern with pushing that slope back is creating a situation where the boundary layer on the roof detaches from the vehicle. It's possible that, due to the dimensions of the 3, there is a breaking point on roof slope that would force them from their current sedan shape into a Kammback shape. That's what appears to have happened with the Bolt, and I really don't think that's a design format that Tesla wanted for their first production vehicle. With the Model 3, the Cd is of higher importance than with some of the competition.

    As an example, look at teardrop trailer designs. Despite looking incredibly aerodynamic, most are quite the opposite because the roofline slopes downward too rapidly. The boundary layer separates, creating low pressure at the back of the vehicle like a drag chute.
     
    • Helpful x 1
    • Informative x 1
  16. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2014
    Messages:
    9,451
    Location:
    EU
    It is possible, of course. But the KISS answer is Elon just loves his glass. And got his glass.
     
    • Disagree x 1
  17. ohmman

    ohmman Maximum Plaid Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Messages:
    8,379
    Location:
    North Bay, CA
    One of those choices has some foundation in science. ;)
     
    • Like x 1
  18. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2014
    Messages:
    9,451
    Location:
    EU
    Yes, Elon liking glass.
     
    • Disagree x 1
  19. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2014
    Messages:
    9,451
    Location:
    EU
  20. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,416
    Location:
    Maine
    Good thing they decided to make the Model 3 first then. Only half a million reservations. The ramp up for the 3 is on the edge of what they can manage, imagine the problem of ramping up to 1.5 Million reservations of the Y.

    Thank you kindly.
     
    • Like x 1
    • Funny x 1

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC