I get it. I'm one of the people who agrees with the "service department revenue" argument. But several others have pointed out that a) EV's still do require SOME service and b) Tesla's $600 annual service visit is actually MORE money than many people (including me) are currently paying for ICE maintenance. So we're casting about for an alternative explanation. Risk intolerance seems to be as good as any.
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It has nothing to do with what the dealers want; it's what the public wants. Every time I see a Facebook post that references Tesla (like the ones from Car & Driver, etc.), people are on there saying things like "make it affordable!" and "I'll buy one when it's under $25K". Most of these people are begging Tesla to build a cheap, long(er) range EV. It's as if they think Tesla has made a conscious decision to price their cars out of the range of average families. So the problem isn't that people don't want EVs, it's that there is limited appeal to EVs in the current price range, (and with the current infrastructure) and making them at the price they would be appealing to most customers is currently impossible.
If the public was knocking on dealerships' doors with huge handfuls of cash, demanding dependable, rocket-powered ice cream makers, you can bet that GM and Ford would have models ready by 2016, and they would be really good ones! The old manufacturers are not as concerned about pioneering expensive and financially risky technology as they are about making cash TODAY!
Tesla is the only manufacturer who is seriously developing the technology that will lead to affordable EVs, and has taken the approach that they must first be offered as expensive, high-end items before the technology and scale of production allows the price to be reduced. When the technology and price reductions are there, they will be the most experienced EV manufacturer in the world.
It's always more difficult and expensive to be the leader than it is to wait & copy what works. Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, and the rest of them will be the hyenas that rush in to steal a piece of the lion's kill after he did all the hard work.
This morning I went to my local Chevrolet dealer and drove a Volt. They had one on the lot, and the HV battery was completely flat. So they must not be very serious about moving it. On the other hand, the salesman was happy to talk about it, somewhat knowledgeable, and didn't make any effort to steer me to a Cruze instead. I drove it around a while, regened some power into the battery and left it with the service department to put air in the tires (right rear a few pounds low) and charge it up. So, at least at that particular dealer, the staff didn't seem to have much bias one way or the other about the Volt. Just another product to them. I didn't like it much, the interior feels cramped with the big center tunnel and the center console controls are busy and difficult to figure out. Apparently they've updated the interface for the 2015 models and the sales guy wasn't familiar with the new layout. By the way, the TPMS in the Volt has a screen that shows the actual pressure in each individual tire. Would be nice if Tesla could do that.
Speaking of service department revenue, I did ask about the maintenance requirements for the Volt, since the gas engine shouldn't run most of the time anyway. He showed me the "oil status" indicator screen and said he would generally recommend oil changes at about 25% oil status. So, they aren't necessarily pushing for every 3,000 miles.
I also drove a BMW i3 this morning. BMW of San Antonio (yes, the San Antonio in Texas!) has a dozen i3's on the lot, a big display inside the showroom with the Bosch EVSE, and the salesman was quite knowledgeable about BMW's i line and their charging network plans (150 J1772 Combo stations!) He was less knowledgeable about Tesla and the Supercharger network; apparently their training materials are out of date. He thought there were only 50 Superchargers, all in California. I told him there are 5 in Texas, the closest of which is San Marcos.
Anyway, to address one of Genebe's points above: after this morning's experience I feel like BMW is another manufacturer who is serious about EV's. They designed the i3 from the ground up as electric and are pioneering low-cost carbon fiber construction to offset the weight of the battery. The only step left to take is to have the nerve to use a 200+ mile battery pack instead of offering a gasoline-powered range extender. The sales guy told me the next i product is going to be an i5. Maybe with a few more years of battery improvements they'll be ready to make it a serious interstate-capable EV.
But this is the GM thread so I'll get back to GM. They have some good engineers. I've heard good things about the Spark EV, even though it's a compliance car. Not all of the dealers are actively hostile to EV's. It's possible that the next generation Volt will be a big step in the right direction.
Speaking of service department revenue, I did ask about the maintenance requirements for the Volt, since the gas engine shouldn't run most of the time anyway. He showed me the "oil status" indicator screen and said he would generally recommend oil changes at about 25% oil status. So, they aren't necessarily pushing for every 3,000 miles.
I also drove a BMW i3 this morning. BMW of San Antonio (yes, the San Antonio in Texas!) has a dozen i3's on the lot, a big display inside the showroom with the Bosch EVSE, and the salesman was quite knowledgeable about BMW's i line and their charging network plans (150 J1772 Combo stations!) He was less knowledgeable about Tesla and the Supercharger network; apparently their training materials are out of date. He thought there were only 50 Superchargers, all in California. I told him there are 5 in Texas, the closest of which is San Marcos.
Anyway, to address one of Genebe's points above: after this morning's experience I feel like BMW is another manufacturer who is serious about EV's. They designed the i3 from the ground up as electric and are pioneering low-cost carbon fiber construction to offset the weight of the battery. The only step left to take is to have the nerve to use a 200+ mile battery pack instead of offering a gasoline-powered range extender. The sales guy told me the next i product is going to be an i5. Maybe with a few more years of battery improvements they'll be ready to make it a serious interstate-capable EV.
But this is the GM thread so I'll get back to GM. They have some good engineers. I've heard good things about the Spark EV, even though it's a compliance car. Not all of the dealers are actively hostile to EV's. It's possible that the next generation Volt will be a big step in the right direction.
As I pointed out on another thread, the maintenance schedule for the Volt is very undemanding. This is especially true if you scale the suggested replacement of the platinum tipped spark plugs at 100,000 miles (typical of conventional gas cars today) so that it maps to your actual gas engine usage. I've used my engine for about 1/3 of my miles so I plan to replace the plugs by at least 300,000 miles or so.
Otherwise, I've spent less than $100 for 2 oil changes in the last 4 years and 103,000 miles. I will soon buy some replacement wiper blades for the windshield. Other than that, my next planned maintenance should be around 150,000 miles for another oil change along with my first coolant replacement (engine, inverter, and battery loops) and perhaps my first new engine air filter and a transmission fluid change.
Pure BEV Dogma - Page 100
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GM is widely rumored to be working with their Lithium battery supplier, LG Chem, on a 200-mile range BEV small car for the 2017-2018 timeframe. It's unclear if this will be a compliance car or not. It will almost certainly have the same DC charge capability as the BMW i3.
Based on some initial specification parameters just released by GM and some informed speculation, the 2016 Volt is looking like it will have around a 19 kwh battery with around a 50 mile EPA EV range (up from 38), around EPA 42-45 mpg in hybrid mode (up from 37 combined, 40 highway), and 0-60 mph in 7.0-7.5 seconds in hybrid mode after battery depletion or 8.0-8.5 seconds in EV mode. Price should be somewhat under the present $35,000 MSRP (as low as ~$30,000 new at some Las Angeles area dealers). More details by January at the Detroit auto show and February at the SAE annual technical conference. All major aspects of the powertrain and battery have been significantly redesigned for significant but incremental improvement. It's not revolutionary like the Roadster or Model S but it's clear that they are trying and its a great transitional vehicle between gasoline and all electric.
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RobStark
Well-Known Member
The same informed speculation that tells us GM is working on a 200 mile BEV with LG Chem tells us it will be based on the Chevy Sonic.
In other words a cramped subcompact BEV conversion.
It also tells us Volt 2.0 will not have a bigger battery,and may in fact have a smaller battery, but allow you to use a larger percentage of it.
GM was extremely conservative with SOC use to prevent unacceptable battery degradation.
With better real world data it seems GM will be a bit more aggressive with Volt 2.0.
It looks like GM hit the 50 AER but more like 40-42 MPG combined in hybrid mode.
Not a full 5th seat but maybe a child seat bench on top of the battery tunnel.
In other words a cramped subcompact BEV conversion.
It also tells us Volt 2.0 will not have a bigger battery,and may in fact have a smaller battery, but allow you to use a larger percentage of it.
GM was extremely conservative with SOC use to prevent unacceptable battery degradation.
With better real world data it seems GM will be a bit more aggressive with Volt 2.0.
It looks like GM hit the 50 AER but more like 40-42 MPG combined in hybrid mode.
Not a full 5th seat but maybe a child seat bench on top of the battery tunnel.
artsci
Sponsor
I had a Volt before I bought the Model S. Volt 2.0 is no big deal, and signals that GM is not serious about electric cars.
V
The BMW i3 with range extender almost certainly has a substantially better EV mode range but it is $10,000 more and the range extender has important usability limitations for some driver requirements.
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In my opinion as a 2011 Volt owner, Volt 2.0 appears to be a good solid incremental improvement with all of the major components substantially redesigned. It was a major investment in engineering. It's not a radical change but brings real improvements that are important to people looking to buy a plugin hybrid. It's the best overall car in its approximate pricing range. It's within a few thousand $$ of a Prius Plugin or Ford Energi after credits and rebates but has much better battery range and battery mode performance. The new engine and transmission will likely meet or exceed the Ford Energi in performance and mpg when the gas engine is running. It's only real remaining competitive challenge is interior space, rear leg room and usable middle rear bench seating. The information recently revealed was about the powertrain only. There isn't information on the vehicle interior to judge it yet.
The BMW i3 with range extender almost certainly has a substantially better EV mode range but it is $10,000 more and the range extender has important usability limitations for some driver requirements.
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GM has said the new pack will have 96 pairs of cells for a total of 192. The new cells have improved chemistry and are 20% more energy dense by volume. The pack is a similar or slightly smaller size but some of that it due to reduced cooling overhead with fewer cells to cool. The Spark EV starting in 2015 has the same number and configuration of cells coming from the same LG battery plant in Michigan and the Spark pack is about 19 kWh. It seems quite likely to me that Spark and Volt 2.0 will be sharing the same or closely related cells and so will have the same basic pack capacity making it 1-2 kWh larger than the existing 17.1 kWh pack in the existing Volt. GM has not bothered to redo the EPA window sticker EV range number since the 2013 Volt even though the battery has gone up from 16.5 kWh and the SOC window has gone up from 65% to 68-69%.
I believe the rumors are that it will be based on the next generation Sonic platform, not the present day car. That would still make it a subcompact or small compact but they might have had the opportunity to design-in some battery placement strategies important to such a large pack.
Or the Sonic rumor might be wrong and it's really going to be built on a bigger platform. There were widespread reports that Volt 2.0 would use a 3 cylinder 1.0L Otto engine and it's really using a 4 cylinder 1.5L semi-Atkinson-capable engine. There were rumors that there would be a cheaper alternative version of the Volt with a smaller battery pack but there isn't any sign of that yet.
My guess is that GM is planning to differentiate on price. They will try to bring out a car with 200 miles EV range but relatively smaller and cheaper and try to hit close to a $30,000 price target. They will hope that the Model 3 comes in closer to $40,000 base price. They may also try coming to market a year earlier than the Model 3. Personally, I plan on getting a Model 3 but I think it's good to have some other alternative cars being built with 150-200 mile range.
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