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GM continues to try to stifle competition

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flankspeed, I'm relying on what Tesla Legal has told us - but this kind of information is usually public record. They would have worked with their local legislator to get the bill into session and it would have gone from there. Legislators rarely write their own bills, most are ghost-authored by lobbyists and/or staffers. It's going to be a dirty fight in Indiana. While Tesla clearly has legs, the politics that happen behind closed doors is hard to fight.

I was stunned and continue to be stunned by different laws I've run into on this whole dealership journey. For instance, in Tennessee, not only is the Motor Vehicle Commission (MVC) there made up of 100% dealership owners, the law REQUIRES that the members of the MVC come from Tennessee dealerships. Guess who wrote that law for their legislators? Mmmmhhmmmm. So it wasn't a slam dunk for Tesla in Tennessee. You know what made the difference? Owners showing up and holding these guys accountable publicly. They couldn't hide. Everyone knew what was going on. So kudos to the Tennessee Tesla (and other EV owners, too) who drove across the state for a couple of different hearings.
 
In Washington a couple of years ago, a dealer group wrote some legislation and gave it to some local lawmakers. It mostly adjusted a lot of the language overseeing the relationship between dealers and manufacturers. The dealers are local and the manufacturers aren't, so our lawmakers were ready to pass the package nearly unanimously.

Ironically, it was a GM lobbyist that alerted the local EV community to a very tiny wording change - I think it just moved and "and" to an "or" or something like that. Anyways, the result was that Tesla (or any other manufacturer without dealers) would no longer be able to sell in Washington. Suddenly, a long, complicated, boring business relationship bill became "the Tesla bill". The bill sponsors were surprised and embarrassed. Plug In America and the Electric Auto Associations in the state sent out action alerts to all of their members in Washington, asking them to contact their legislators. (One legislator later told us that he had never received so many emails on one bill). I organized an EV day in the state capitol; around a dozen Teslas and a couple of LEAFs drove a couple of hours to be there on a weekday. There was a long list of us testifying on a public hearing for the bill. Tesla sent their regional Government Affairs person (a nice guy that I ran in to a couple weeks ago as we both testified on another EV bill).

The legislators heard the people, and responded appropriately. The portion of the bill affecting Tesla was changed, despite the very late hour and a highly unusual budget crisis that was keeping most such changes from happening.

You can make a difference!
 
I might have missed it, but where is the proof that GM authored this bill? I can't believe they would be so stupid to do so in the year 2016. Tesla clearly has legs and is now more mainstream than ever and they are not going to be shut down.

Tesla:
Authored and pushed by General Motors, HB1254 with amendment 3

It'd be nice to see some more proof. Tesla should provide the amendment 3 details and document.

House Bill 1254 - Interim study committee - Indiana General Assembly, 2016 Session
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Thanks for posting about this. I'll be phoning my State Rep's and State Senator's office about the bill.

EDIT: Looks like it has already been passed by the house, with a hopping 92-3 vote. Proud that my rep voted against it.

It's also worth noting that Senator Yoder was removed as a co-sponsor. I wonder if that was a result of external pressure, or something else.
 
Not to derail this thread but nothing I've seen about Fuel Cells makes them viable:

1. Hydrogen is *hard* to store, there's a reason most industrial applications have hydrogen sensors inside. The risk of explosion is non-trivial from what I understand.
2. Fuel cells degrade over time, so instead of less range you get less efficiency.
3. There's no economical way to extract Hydrogen, solar has really poor efficiency compared to BEV and LNG involves fossil fuels which is a non-starter for many reasons.

Not only that, but the infrastructure across the world would need to be revamped. If they are going to use hydrogen as an energy source, why not do it in large scale, like nuke plants? Convert it to electricity and use the existing infrastructure to power our cars!
 
If I used Twitter, I would re-Tweet it....but I don't. I think the fight is much more pragmatic than made out to be. If GM is indeed fighting this as a corporate sole, are they doing it to stifle the advancement of EV (doubtful IMO) or because they generally fear the uneven playing field that will exist between dealer and non-dealer sales. If it is the latter I can understand them looking out for THEIR best interests. That is what business does.
 
Toyota's fuel cell is warranted for 15 years. After that, you probably would get a new car anyway.
Using a E-CEM the Navy is extracting hydrogen from seawater, there are alternative approaches that people are looking at and so we will see where this winds up in a couple of years.

Yes, people also thought that gas stations would be blowing up too. Fortunately, enough people were open minded to continue figuring out ways to safely transport and store gas.

It is always amusing that some EV supporters accuse ICE-defenders as being close minded, then some turn around and have similar knee-jerk negative reaction to hydrogen, call them "fool cells", not keep up with the tech, etc.. LOL Sure, Toyota is spending $4B for PR benefits...sure, that makes sense. LOL. Double LOL.

There are a fair number of people here who have looked at the science and economics of hydrogen and it doesn't really make sense most of the time. It does have properties that make it very useful for space craft, but that's a whole different set of engineering problems.

This article lays out the waste involved in using hydrogen:
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/toy...gen-fuel-cell-vehicles-compete-with-evs-60374

There are quite a few others that make similar analysis. As you can see, if you start with 100KWh of energy and use it for hydrogen or electric vehicles, you get around three times the energy out of an electric vehicle than you do a hydrogen one. Now gasoline has even worse economy, there are about 100 KWh of energy in 3 gallons of gas (33 KWh per gallon for common automotive gasoline). With a typical car you'd only get about 90 miles out of those three gallons, but you can get over 200 miles out of the 69 KWh the EV has.

Hydrogen also has severe transportation and storage problems. People complain about vampire losses with EVs, it's much worse with hydrogen vehicles. Hydrogen is the smallest molecule in existence. It's so small it goes through everything and will leak out of any container. All you can do is slow down the leak with a good container. Liquefied it leaks out less readily, but to liquefy hydrogen requires cooling it down to below -240 C (the coldest possible temperature in the universe is -273 C). That takes a lot of energy.

Making hydrogen from water with solar powered electrolysis is possible, but that's limited to where you have the water and sunlight. The further you transport hydrogen the less you have. So if you make hydrogen out of sea water in Galveston, TX and transported it to Dallas, you'd probably lose 1/2 or more on the way. If you put it on a truck, you have to factor in how much energy the truck is consuming driving to Dallas. If you put it in a pipeline, the pipeline has to be an order of magnitude tighter built than oil or gas pipelines. The pipeline would have to be pressurized to pressures way higher than any other pipeline. A tiny leak could cause a staggeringly large loss of the hydrogen. If you want to liquefy it you have to keep the pipeline cryogenicly cold.

A leak in a hydrogen pipeline could also turn into a very dangerous situation, worse than a typical oil pipeline leak. Since the hydrogen is under incredible pressure, a leak would pump a very large amount of hydrogen out the leak before the pipeline was shut down. Fortunately the hydrogen would disperse into the atmosphere relatively quickly if it doesn't explode, but hydrogen fires are scary because they are hard to see.

Gasoline can sit in an underground tank for months without any problems, but a hydrogen station needs more hydrogen daily and will have losses of stored hydrogen even underground. A hydrogen fueled car that sits at the airport for a week may have a dry tank by the time the owner gets back from their trip.

The reason hydrogen tanks are only certified for 14 years is because as hydrogen leaks through the walls of a tank, some of it interacts with the atoms of the metal and makes it brittle. Hydrogen will also damage any other parts it comes in contact with.

Not all that long ago lead acid batteries looked like the only viable option for propelling electric cars. Back then, hydrogen looked like a more viable technology. But batteries have come a long way in the last 20 years and especially in the last 5-10 years. The Li-ion batteries in use in the pure EVs today are barely adequate for the job. Basically either the range sucks or the car is very expensive. We're on the cusp of all that changing with the Bolt and Model 3 coming soon, but today, that's where we are. There is a tremendous amount of research going into batteries right now. It's a gold rush and nobody knows when or where the next big breakthrough is going to come, but everyone expects it to happen at some point in the next few years. There are a lot of promising research projects.

There has been a lot of speculation why Toyota went all in on hydrogen. They have a yearly R&D budget of $10 billion. Toyota is throwing a fair bit of their own money at hydrogen car research, but governments are throwing money at them for it too. Even if it does cost them $4 billion, that isn't all in one year. If they throw 5% of their R&D budget at hydrogen fuel cells for 8 years, that's $4 billion there. 5% is not nothing, but it's a small slice of their overall budget.
 
If I used Twitter, I would re-Tweet it....but I don't. I think the fight is much more pragmatic than made out to be. If GM is indeed fighting this as a corporate sole, are they doing it to stifle the advancement of EV (doubtful IMO) or because they generally fear the uneven playing field that will exist between dealer and non-dealer sales. If it is the latter I can understand them looking out for THEIR best interests. That is what business does.

I believe it's the latter. And I'm fine with companies looking out for their best interests - but not with companies using the legal process to stifle competition. Build a better product.

During the Bolt reveal, it was galling to hear the GM CEO, Mary Barra, tout that one of their advantages was that their vehicle could be serviced in every state -while leaving out the fact that some other electric vehicles could not because of her company's actions. It wasn't that their product was better and had a better service network. It was that they had an all-out push to stifle Tesla in particular. And now, imo, we're watching them use taxpayer dollars to do so again.
 
To me, hydrogen powered cars is not thinking "long term", it's still tying the fleet to a single energy type. The beauty of an EV fleet is that you can change over your national energy infrastructure overnight without waiting 20 years for the automobile fleet to changeover (that's how long it takes). We can charge on coal today (still better than burning gas), hydro or nuke the day after, and wind or solar after that. The car doesn't care where the electrons come from.
 
Though I think GM's support of house bill 5606 is misguided, I appreciate them taking the lead in affordable long range EV's and it is nice to see American companies in the forefront of EV technology.

Toyota is by far the worst in anti EV company. They are solidly against EV's, even to the point of having put out commercials with misinformation to discourage the public from buying them:

Lexus Anti-EV Ad Lives On
Anti-EV, pro-hybrid ad from Lexus gets a whole lot wrong

It is crazy that our government is spending hundreds of millions of dollars to support Toyota and their push for hydrogen. Think how much that would help EV adoption. I think they must have some of our law makers in their pocket.

http://www.wired.com/2015/11/toyotas-hybrid-rav4-is-a-middle-finger-to-battery-evs/
 
I believe it's the latter. And I'm fine with companies looking out for their best interests - but not with companies using the legal process to stifle competition. Build a better product.

During the Bolt reveal, it was galling to hear the GM CEO, Mary Barra, tout that one of their advantages was that their vehicle could be serviced in every state -while leaving out the fact that some other electric vehicles could not because of her company's actions. It wasn't that their product was better and had a better service network. It was that they had an all-out push to stifle Tesla in particular. And now, imo, we're watching them use taxpayer dollars to do so again.

Make no mistake about it, General Motors is behind this. They are fighting the Tesla direct sales model in states all around the country. I saw them in action here in Maryland. Lawmakers had worked out a deal with the Dealers Association to agree to let Tesla open six stores. Then GM came in and messed things up. They “threw a grenade” as the sponsor of the Maryland bill described it. In the end, they had to settle to be allowed only four stores because of GM’s intense lobbying.

Folks, this is a big deal. Bonnie is absolutely right, now is the time to make noise about what GM is trying to do in Indiana. I suggest going to the hearing on Thursday and testifying if at all possible. Stand before the committee and start with the following points:

1. General Motors is the only automobile manufacturer taking this position. Point out that Ford, Fiat Chrysler, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, etc. are not actively opposing Tesla direct sales.

2. If true, point out that the Indiana Dealers Association are not trying to stop Tesla.

3. Remind the committee of all the other states that have taken action to rewrite their laws to specifically allow Tesla’s new business model of direct to consumer sales. The states include, New Jersey, Maryland and others.

On the subject of social media, don’t forget to mention or post to the committee members’ Twitter and Facebook accounts. Here are two that I found,
Citizens4Merritt (@Jim_Merritt) | Twitter
https://www.facebook.com/mikedelph/

If Tesla is appealing to owners in Indiana for help, it probably means they really need it. GM has an army of lawyers and political weight to throw around. Tesla has you.

Lanny