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GM to introduce Tesla rival, JB Straubel comments on battery cost

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Am I the only one that, even if every competitor such as GM or Ford created a 300 mile car much like the Tesla, I would still buy a Tesla? I mean I just trust Tesla more not to screw me over being a smaller company they can't cut corners to be the best product. Also they already would have then infrastructure installed by the time the big dogs get with the times. I would be glad to see cars like from the big companies, but at the end of the day I would still buy the Tesla for the infrastructure and the security in a quality product.

What do you guys think?
You are not the only one. I wouldn't buy any of the "other" makers EV's, because even if they did manage to copy Tesla, their car would still have many shortcomings compared to Tesla. One huge shortcoming is visiting a dealership. No thanks. The dealership model will not only bring an end to itself, but it will take the current auto manufacturers with it.
 
So GM is going to make an electric car while still producing cars like the Cadillac Elmiraj? Goodness people who are running that company are air heads.

GM is a large company developing vehicles that meet the needs of many types of people. Nissan makes the Leaf while still making the GT-R. Not everyone bought a Model S to make a statement about the environment or to other companies/people about the cars they produce/drive.

You are not the only one. I wouldn't buy any of the "other" makers EV's, because even if they did manage to copy Tesla, their car would still have many shortcomings compared to Tesla. One huge shortcoming is visiting a dealership. No thanks. The dealership model will not only bring an end to itself, but it will take the current auto manufacturers with it.

I'd keep an open mind personally. If they can match the tech inside, it might be worth it. If Audi were to come out with something similarly specced to a Model S, I'd probably get it. Audi has superior interiors, and aside from the touchscreen, already have superior tech. On top of that, it's far more convenient (and cheaper) to get one of our Audis serviced than the Model S.
 
Anyone has the full article can share?

GM Floats Plan for Vehicle that Rivals Tesla


GM Developing Car to Rival Tesla
Cost of Advanced Battery-Technology Remains Hurdle to Building Longer-Range Vehicles

By Mike Ramsey
General Motors Floats Plan for Tesla Rival

Largest U.S. auto maker says it has technology available to make about $30,000 electric car that goes 200 miles on a charge but bringing down the cost of battery would take time.

Corporate News: GM Floats $30,000 Electric Car to Rival Tesla Model S
Mike Ramsey
By Mike Ramsey
757 words
17 September 2013
The Wall Street Journal
J
B3
English
(Copyright (c) 2013, Dow Jones & Company, Inc.)
General Motors Co. is developing an electric car that can go 200 miles on a charge for around $30,000, officials at the largest U.S. auto maker said, offering a challenge to electric-car startup Tesla Motors Inc.

Doug Parks, GM's vice president of global product programs, disclosed the effort Monday at GM's battery laboratory and test facility in Warren, Mich., but didn't say when the car would be available. He said while the technology is available now, the cost of the batteries remains too high to be able to pull off the feat today.

GM's move to raise the profile of its battery research efforts comes as Tesla is challenging the established auto industry's claim to technology leadership with its $70,000 and up Model S. Mr. Parks' comments came just a few days after Germany's Volkswagen AG said it intended to become the largest seller of electric vehicles by 2018.

Analysts and industry executives say Tesla, GM, VW and the current global electric vehicle sales leader, Nissan Motor Co., all face the same problem: current electric vehicle batteries are too expensive, and deliver too little usable driving range compared with vehicles powered by internal combustion engines.

The number of electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles for sale in the U.S. has more than quadrupled to 15 vehicles since 2010 as auto makers roll out new models to comply with government mandates. But sales of electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles account for less than half of 1% of the overall market, despite price cuts, discounted leases and government tax incentives that can add up to as much as $12,500 a vehicle depending on the state.

GM has sold nearly 15,000 of its battery-powered Chevrolet Volt cars this year through August, aided by incentives and discounts. The Volt's extended range comes from a gasoline engine that recharges its battery.

Nissan's approach is to argue that extending the range of electric vehicles to 200 miles isn't worth it because most people don't drive farther in a day than the Nissan Leaf's 75 miles of all-electric range. The Leaf costs $28,800 in the U.S. before federal tax credits.

Tesla is the lone auto maker to offer long-range electric vehicles with its Model S -- and Tesla still hasn't shown it can steadily make money selling them.

Tesla Chief Executive Elon Musk said recently that "it didn't require a miracle" to sell a 200-mile range electric car for around $35,000 in the next three or four years.

Every other EV currently on the market gets about 100 miles of range or less. Starting prices for them currently range between $25,000 for the Smart Fortwo EV and $50,000 for the RAV4 EV. BMW's i3, launching later this year, is expected to start at $41,350.

Kevin Gallagher, a chemist and researcher at the Department of Energy's Argonne National Laboratory, said auto makers are spending about $500 a kilowatt hour on battery packs. That means the 24 kwh pack on the Nissan Leaf would cost around $12,000. Last year, Ford CEO Alan Mulally said the battery on the Focus EV with 23 kwh of energy costs between $13,000 and $15,000.

Tesla Chief Technical Officer JB Straubel says the company's battery costs are half or even a quarter of the price of the industry average, partly because of the company's strategy to use thousands of commodity battery casings rather than the specialized batteries that GM and Nissan use.

"The battery prices in the Model S are substantially lower than what everyone expects today," he said in an interview. Mr. Straubel expects the energy density in Tesla's batteries will increase by more than 20% by the time Tesla's mass-market car comes out in about four years. More energy in batteries should equate to longer driving range for roughly the same price.

Tesla doesn't disclose what its batteries cost. Toyota Motor Corp.'s electric RAV4 sport-utility vehicle is outfitted by Tesla with batteries and a Tesla motor. It has a 41.8 kwh battery pack and has 103 miles of range. The starting price of $49,800 is about $26,500 more than the internal combustion engine RAV4 that starts at $23,300.
 
I'd keep an open mind personally. If they can match the tech inside, it might be worth it. If Audi were to come out with something similarly specced to a Model S, I'd probably get it. Audi has superior interiors, and aside from the touchscreen, already have superior tech. On top of that, it's far more convenient (and cheaper) to get one of our Audis serviced than the Model S.
I have a very open mind, and mostly agree with you(audi has much better interior/exterior quality), but the ICE is a deal breaker compared to the Model S. While I'm sure that they can build an EV, it will definitely not be a better EV at the Model S price-point(batteries to go that far are too expensive). While it's cheaper to service and Audi ICE, we cannot say the same for an EV version.
 
Hey guys, I am working on a design for a $20,000 space rocket. The technology is already here, I just have to wait for the price of materials and rocket fuel to come down.

Possible media headlines coming tomorrow:

SpaceX: The Attacks Keep Coming
Sleepyhead to Attack SpaceX with a Space Rocket
Sleepyhead Eyeing Cheap Space Rocket to Tackle SpaceX

 
Hey guys, I am working on a design for a $20,000 space rocket. The technology is already here, I just have to wait for the price of materials and rocket fuel to come down.

Possible media headlines coming tomorrow:

SpaceX: The Attacks Keep Coming
Sleepyhead to Attack SpaceX with a Space Rocket
Sleepyhead Eyeing Cheap Space Rocket to Tackle SpaceX


Good one! That was my reaction too.

You can't blame them for wanting be associated with Tesla, in whichever way they can get. :biggrin: have you seen a PR about a Tesla like motorcycle? It turns out it has nothing to do with Tesla. It was an India company trying to sell something, which I don't even remember now. :confused:
 
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I have a very open mind, and mostly agree with you(audi has much better interior/exterior quality), but the ICE is a deal breaker compared to the Model S. While I'm sure that they can build an EV, it will definitely not be a better EV at the Model S price-point(batteries to go that far are too expensive). While it's cheaper to service and Audi ICE, we cannot say the same for an EV version.

Good point, but I'd think Audi has the wherewithal to actually absorb some of the service costs of their earlier models. It's all academic anyway as Audi hasn't shown they're capable of creating a true competitor to the Model S (FWIW, if they had one about 10-15k over the S, I'd still strongly consider it).
 
Am I the only one that, even if every competitor such as GM or Ford created a 300 mile car much like the Tesla, I would still buy a Tesla?
I'd look at the cars and figure out which one had the best value for my dollar, just as I did with Tesla today.

In the future, it won't be "All cars are Tesla". There will be competitors and like today with ICEs there will be multiple good choices. I suspect Tesla's Gen3 will crush the competition though and it won't be until Gen4 where Tesla really loses it's dominance, but by then the EV market should be rising so quickly Tesla can't meet the demand anyway.
 
I still firmly believe that the Leaf, Ford C-MAX, BMW i3, etc. are all lame attempts at EVs to make it seem like they are not a viable alternative to ICEs. The big auto manufactures do not want EVs because it would simply ruin their business model. When it comes to EVs, thats what Tesla does so thats who I would trust to give me the best product. If GM suddenly came out and said, in 5 years we will only produce EVs, then maybe I would take them seriously, but even then they would still be playing catch up with Tesla.
 
My main question is:
200 miles, great, how do you charge it for trips? Will they licence the supercharger as rumored? Seems likely.

Also, where is this 120kW charging Tesla keeps talking about but not delivering. Seems like charging can barely support 90kW anyway.
 
While I don't think GM's offering will in any way compare to a Model S, I think it will be of better quality than expected. My guess is it will fall a little short of range and far shorter in safety when compared to a Gen III. Charging will be slower, of course. It should have respectable sales and offer another option in the price range (Nissan really needs to double the Leaf range by this point or build an EV Altima if they want to stay out of the history books).
If GM wants this car to be competitive, they should bring back the Saturn nameplate (and sales approach) and treat it like a startup, so the car HAS to be good to survive. They dropped the Volt price to boost sales. The can afford to lose money because they have a bunch of other cars they make money on. If they made the car more appealing, maybe the initial price point may have worked. Where's their waiting list?
For my family, we really need 200 miles before an EV will work for us. The Volt would be a nice hold-me-over-until-Gen III, but it won't work unless I can get two car seats in with the driver seat all the way back. Maybe a crossover? Something like a RAV4 that isn't $50K?
As far as competition goes, I am more concerned about VW. They have already built the XL1 and the Bugatti Veyron - not just a fast car. I think they may put some R&D time in.
 
Pride vs. humility.

Perhaps GM needs some Quentin Tarantino advice. Down rated to PG-13

"Night of the fight, you might feel a slight sting. That's pride screw'n with you. screw pride! Pride only hurts, it never helps. You fight through that stuff. 'Cause a year from now, when you kicking it in the Caribbean, you gonna say to yourself, "Marcellus Wallace was right."
 
They can afford to lose money because they have a bunch of other cars they make money on.
This is their main problem. They cannot build a better EV at a decent price point, because it will cannibalize their bread and butter, and make their ICE vehicles very unattractive to the buyer. Very fine line here. This is why most existing companies fail when there is a big technology change in their field, the risk of cannibalizing yourself appears too great, so they continue with business as usual.
 
For qwk and others. One thing that hurts GM is their stinkin' dealer networks. Many time, a salesman will route a buyer away from a Volt to offer them the "sensible" choice of something like a Cruze or Malibu. "Why buy this when you can spend 10K less and that pays for a lot of gasoline" they say. GM's dealer network will not assist them to grow the EV sales. It takes certain high volume dealerships, a few of which are in the Los Angeles area, who sell dozens of Volts per week. That compares to shops like the ones near me who either opted out of the Volt program (complaints about certain battery tools they needed to buy - or get out of the program) - or they sell 1-2 per quarter. The Volt buyers out there tend to have to tell the salesperson how the thing works.

GM is a good company fronted by a wide variety of some good and some horrible dealerships.
 
Took my Volt to the closest Chevy shop near me recently for some warranty work (very minor rattle).

The service writer lady there said "did you buy the Volt here? We usually recommend Volt owners to take them to where they bought them." So, I went to another dealership and got it serviced by some really nice folks. Won't be back to that first one. Dealerships can be cannabalized by their own employees.

Tesla's model is fine - to bypass dealership madness. But since most neighborhood shops don't do electric vehicles, the real problem is going to the "regional sevice center" or having a ranger come by. This means a Tesla owner really needs a standby car "just in case". Most upper middle class families have multiple cars. But once the $35K Model-E is out, the service model needs to be tuned up with far more service centers in metro areas or lots of rangers.

There will be some blowback from EVs. Neighborhood car repair shops will undoubtably "uprate" a repair such as a wheel alignment or tire repair because you have an EV and you rarely will ever visit for repairs and "being rich" you can afford to pay more. Juts like electricians up-cost the installation of an EVSE unit rather than a standard 14-50 plug. "EV? - Pay Me" is what they're thinking.