Going crazy about Performance brakes? [Tesla using caliper covers on rear brakes of Y performance after supplier switch]

[tm1v2]

This doesn't effect me but man...I feel so torn about this.

On one hand @thesmokingman is absolutely correct, the rear Brembo calipers are also just floaters with a red cover molded into the brake to look as if they're proper opposing piston fixed calipers...if you don't look too closely. They are just as fake as these Mando rear calipers.

On the flip side, from the look of it I would guess the Mando calipers are less stiff than the Brembo calipers. And having the fake-fixed-piston cover molded in means no risk of it coming loose and making your car seem like a cheap PoS with appearance parts falling off like the OP experienced. Plus, you paid for a car with "performance" brakes. I would argue the Brembo brand fulfills that feature better than Mando.

So I agree with @thesmokingman and I also agree with @jjrandorin. It's really no big deal from a performance perspective, but it's still misleading and I would feel ripped off if I bought the car expecting performance brakes, and all I got was a caliper cover stuck on identical brakes as the regular Model Y.

 

[thesmokingman]

This doesn't effect me but man...I feel so torn about this.

On one hand @thesmokingman is absolutely correct, the rear Brembo calipers are also just floaters with a red cover molded into the brake to look as if they're proper opposing piston fixed calipers...if you don't look too closely. They are just as fake as these Mando rear calipers.

On the flip side, from the look of it I would guess the Mando calipers are less stiff than the Brembo calipers. And having the fake-fixed-piston cover molded in means no risk of it coming loose and making your car seem like a cheap PoS with appearance parts falling off like the OP experienced. Plus, you paid for a car with "performance" brakes. I would argue the Brembo brand fulfills that feature better than Mando.

So I agree with @thesmokingman and I also agree with @jjrandorin. It's really no big deal from a performance perspective, but it's still misleading and I would feel ripped off if I bought the car expecting performance brakes, and all I got was a caliper cover stuck on identical brakes as the regular Model Y.

Technically the rear was never "Performance" since it was always a slider. That said, sliders are just as good as fixed. Many comp spec'd cars use sliders like the BMW 1M or even the M3. But 4 pots and 6 pots, or 8 pots are so bling and cool lol. Sorry didn't mean to add more torn to it, but yea shrugs...
also... stuff liek this is common. 2/4 pots in the rear is a waste from a gross margin perspective.

Why did AMG stop using 4 piston rear calipers - MBWorld.org Forums

W211 AMG - Why did AMG stop using 4 piston rear calipers - I noticed for quite sometime that AMG as a whole stop incorporating 4 piston rear calipers on all their AMGs. If I'm not mistaken, I think in 2016 they stopped using them, and started utilizing a sliding rear caliper. Why? I mean, you...

mbworld.org

 

[Sango2]

True, nothing can be done about it at this point.

Since the parking brake is also integrated in the rear, things could be complicated if one were to attempt to change the rear calipers.

 

[tm1v2]

One big question in my mind here that I haven't seen addressed...are the stock brake pads different between the Brembo and Mando rear calipers? THAT is possibly a real performance difference. Do they even take the same pad shape?

In my experience with OEM Brembo calipers (on 3 cars, 2 of them Tesla's), they tend to come with Brembo supplied brake pads, and those pads tend to be quite good for street use. Certainly better than the average OEM brake pad out there in my experience.

M3P PUP Brembo pads feel better than the regular Model 3 pads, especially under hard use. The Brembo pads my STI came with were excellent street performance pads, worlds better than any other OEM Subaru pad. (Okay everything about the STI brakes was in a different world from regular craptacular Subaru brakes.)

Yes the brakes in an EV hardly even matter in typical sane daily driving on these cars, where most deceleration is regen, but we're talking about the "Performance" versions of these cars here...this stuff is relevant at times to us performance car buyers.

 

[thesmokingman]

One big question in my mind here that I haven't seen addressed...are the stock brake pads different between the Brembo and Mando rear calipers? THAT is possibly a real performance difference. Do they even take the same pad shape?

In my experience with OEM Brembo calipers (on 3 cars, 2 of them Tesla's), they tend to come with Brembo supplied brake pads, and those pads tend to be quite good for street use. Certainly better than the average OEM brake pad out there in my experience.

M3P PUP Brembo pads feel better than the regular Model 3 pads, especially under hard use. The Brembo pads my STI came with were excellent street performance pads, worlds better than any other OEM Subaru pad. (Okay everything about the STI brakes was in a different world from regular craptacular Subaru brakes.)

Yes the brakes in an EV hardly even matter in typical sane daily driving on these cars, where most deceleration is regen, but we're talking about the "Performance" versions of these cars here...this stuff is relevant at times to us performance car buyers.

The Tesla pads are specific. I think Tesla went the wrong way on the 4 pots, they should have just chosen off the shelf 4 pots or gotten the off the shelf monoblocks but no we got these stupid looking custom 4 pots. Btw the STI Brembos are off the shelf, they're used in many cars. Another funny tidbit, Subie have the optional 6 pots now which weigh a ton and are not really much better.

 

[tm1v2]

Technically the rear was never "Performance" since it was always a slider. That said, sliders are just as good as fixed. Many comp spec'd cars use sliders like the BMW 1M or even the M3. But 4 pots and 6 pots, or 8 pots are so bling and cool lol. Sorry didn't mean to add more torn to it, but yea shrugs...
also... stuff liek this is common. 2/4 pots in the rear is a waste from a gross margin perspective.

Why did AMG stop using 4 piston rear calipers - MBWorld.org Forums

W211 AMG - Why did AMG stop using 4 piston rear calipers - I noticed for quite sometime that AMG as a whole stop incorporating 4 piston rear calipers on all their AMGs. If I'm not mistaken, I think in 2016 they stopped using them, and started utilizing a sliding rear caliper. Why? I mean, you...

mbworld.org

@thesmokingman I blame the move away from opposing piston rear brakes on the trend towards integrated parking brakes. Which I find quite annoying.

Cars with fixed opposing piston calipers up front almost universally have better brake feel than those with floaters in my experience, when comparing within a car brand especially high performance model vs regular model of the same car. They're also just fundamentally better performing for high intensity use, such as track days, which is relevant to these performance models. Finally pad swaps tend to be easier/quicker with fixed piston calipers in my limited experience - which is nice when swapping between street and track pads regularly.

When the BMW M3 used to come with floaters (they don't anymore right?) I always thought BMW was cheaping out on the brakes, for such a high performance model.

 

[thesmokingman]

@thesmokingman I blame the move away from opposing piston rear brakes on the trend towards integrated parking brakes. Which I find quite annoying.

Cars with fixed opposing piston calipers up front almost universally have better brake feel than those with floaters in my experience, when comparing within a car brand especially high performance model vs regular model of the same car. They're also just fundamentally better performing for high intensity use, such as track days, which is relevant to these performance models. Finally pad swaps tend to be easier/quicker with fixed piston calipers in my limited experience - which is nice when swapping between street and track pads regularly.

When the BMW M3 used to come with floaters (they don't anymore right?) I always thought BMW was cheaping out on the brakes, for such a high performance model.

I don't know about the feel, that's rather subjective. The big ass sliders the germans used worked quite well and they were very light. 4 pots are heavy as hell man. I have a set of brand new 993 TT Big Reds and they are freaking heavy. Regarding pad swaps, that's true if Tesla went with off the shelf, but they didn't. These 4 pots don't have easy pad swaps, they're not made like tradition Brembos, which is why I wrote above that they still kind of suck regardless.

 

[tm1v2]

The Tesla pads are specific. I think Tesla went the wrong way on the 4 pots, they should have just chosen off the shelf 4 pots or gotten the off the shelf monoblocks but no we got these stupid looking custom 4 pots. Btw the STI Brembos are off the shelf, they're used in many cars. Another funny tidbit, Subie have the optional 6 pots now which weigh a ton and are not really much better.

@thesmokingman Yup the STI Brembo's were off the shelf except the paint job, and that was completely fine. I think they were OEM on some other sporty cars too. They worked very well to stop my 3373 lbs STI. Pads + parts were easily available.

Interesting about offering 6 pots now. Has the STI gained more weight to need that? I felt like the 4 pots were sized just right for my 2010. They worked great for track days (with dedicated track pads), worked great on the street too (OEM pads), and they of course fit under older STI 17" BBS wheels which were great & cheap for winter use.

I can't really think of any reason why I'd want bespoke calipers on a road car. I guess a 250 mph supercar needs some special brakes, but otherwise it seems better and cheaper to use good, appropriately sized off-the-shelf brakes. Just IMO, you know by now I'm no expert.

 

[thesmokingman]

Btw, those gold Brembos are not Subie specific. The Z's came with gold brembos too, literally the same ones.

STI Brembos same as 350Z Brembos? - MY350Z.COM - Nissan 350Z and 370Z Forum Discussion

2003-2009 Nissan 350Z - STI Brembos same as 350Z Brembos? - Can anyone tell me, based on FACT, not conjecture, that the stock STI Brembos are the exact same caliper and rotor as the 350Z (and thus, the G35 as well)? Thanks.

my350z.com

 

[tm1v2]

Btw, those gold Brembos are not Subie specific. The Z's came with gold brembos too, literally the same ones.

STI Brembos same as 350Z Brembos? - MY350Z.COM - Nissan 350Z and 370Z Forum Discussion

2003-2009 Nissan 350Z - STI Brembos same as 350Z Brembos? - Can anyone tell me, based on FACT, not conjecture, that the stock STI Brembos are the exact same caliper and rotor as the 350Z (and thus, the G35 as well)? Thanks.

my350z.com

The paint job became custom to the STI in later years. Mine were black with "STI" in white. They were still the same calipers as the earlier gold ones with "Brembo" on them.

 

[Killer Junior]

Just checked the rear calipers on my ‘23 MYP. The covers are metal not plastic. ETA: Oct 22 Fremont build

 

[P3D-R]

I started this post earlier today but got tied up at work. One whole page of responses has already passed so I apologize if some of this info is redundant. I see a few publications misquoting the tweets because the thread is simply way too long. At the end of this reply you will see a link to a blog post which consolidates all info and the entire comparison.

These are just my opinions, which I'm entitled to, and I hope the sentiments resonate with some. If they don't resonate with others that is totally fine but I do not think it is polite to discredit anyone's opinions because they do not align with your own.

1. Yes, the Brembo is a single piston caliper with a clam but that clam is much larger in surface area and acts as a larger heat sink than what the Mando is.
2. The brake pad and pad sweep is also larger on the Brembo caliper/brake pad than the Mando
3. The rotor itself has different venting.
4. The current cover plate is metal not plastic

I don't think the argument is in regards to function but rather that the brakes are marketed as an upgrade on their website when in fact there is absolutely no difference other than paint and a cover plate. This does not justify a "performance" upgrade.

Prior to track mode being offered, which our friends at the Silicon Valley Club requested to Elon on twitter which he responded to "sure", the differences were such and really only 2 of them related to actual "performance."

Performance Related:
1. Drive Units
2. Brembo rear brake calipers, had 22mm thick rotor

Unrelated to performance:
1. 21" ubers, in fact reduced performance and range
2. Cool pedals
3. Carbon Rear spoiler
4. Painted caliper

Arguably, the matrix headlights which are on some of the LR's as of right now.

The front rotor thickness, 25mm, and calipers have always been identical.

With that said the real "performance" gain is only obtained from the drive units on Model Y's produced after 8/15/22. It wouldn't be an issue if people were more aware of the changes but Tesla is very good about making changes without providing adequate consumer awareness. In fact, someone could have placed their order while the rear calipers were still Brembos but received delivery after the change, which I know happened a lot at the end of the summer last year. We ran into this issue with customers when installing suspension and/or ordering brake pads at which point we received the wrong pads. We did notify our friends @MountainPass of this change immediately so they could update their pads. They did their own internal research to corroborate the data and then produced a blog post as a result. I'm sure Jesse will be happy to attest to the fact that we always share whatever "Fremont manufacturing discoveries" we make right away with them considering we're next door to the factory.

Here's a more comprehensive breakdown of the differences with pictures all consolidated into a single place. The argument is simply the fact that there are no differences other than color and this plate between the LR and the Performance but there is a difference in acceleration. I highly doubt Tesla has changed the brake pads or fluid between trims. We could be wrong but either way their verbiage is a little misleading don't you think?

Model Y Performance no longer receives Brembo rear calipers - let's br

A comprehensive breakdown of all changes made to the Model Y Performance trim after 8/15/22. Mando versus Brembo rear calipers!!!!!

zevcentric.com

 

[Stirfry]

..,....but either way their verbiage is a little misleading don't you think?

I am more annoyed by the claimed range. Rear brake covers? Meh.

A company making debatable claims? I am shocked I tells ya

 

[Killer Junior]

I started this post earlier today but got tied up at work. One whole page of responses has already passed so I apologize if some of this info is redundant. I see a few publications misquoting the tweets because the thread is simply way too long. At the end of this reply you will see a link to a blog post which consolidates all info and the entire comparison.

These are just my opinions, which I'm entitled to, and I hope the sentiments resonate with some. If they don't resonate with others that is totally fine but I do not think it is polite to discredit anyone's opinions because they do not align with your own.

1. Yes, the Brembo is a single piston caliper with a clam but that clam is much larger in surface area and acts as a larger heat sink than what the Mando is.
2. The brake pad and pad sweep is also larger on the Brembo caliper/brake pad than the Mando
3. The rotor itself has different venting.
4. The current cover plate is metal not plastic

I don't think the argument is in regards to function but rather that the brakes are marketed as an upgrade on their website when in fact there is absolutely no difference other than paint and a cover plate. This does not justify a "performance" upgrade.

Prior to track mode being offered, which our friends at the Silicon Valley Club requested to Elon on twitter which he responded to "sure", the differences were such and really only 2 of them related to actual "performance."

Performance Related:
1. Drive Units
2. Brembo rear brake calipers, had 22mm thick rotor

Unrelated to performance:
1. 21" ubers, in fact reduced performance and range
2. Cool pedals
3. Carbon Rear spoiler
4. Painted caliper

Arguably, the matrix headlights which are on some of the LR's as of right now.

The front rotor thickness, 25mm, and calipers have always been identical.

With that said the real "performance" gain is only obtained from the drive units on Model Y's produced after 8/15/22. It wouldn't be an issue if people were more aware of the changes but Tesla is very good about making changes without providing adequate consumer awareness. In fact, someone could have placed their order while the rear calipers were still Brembos but received delivery after the change, which I know happened a lot at the end of the summer last year. We ran into this issue with customers when installing suspension and/or ordering brake pads at which point we received the wrong pads. We did notify our friends @MountainPass of this change immediately so they could update their pads. They did their own internal research to corroborate the data and then produced a blog post as a result. I'm sure Jesse will be happy to attest to the fact that we always share whatever "Fremont manufacturing discoveries" we make right away with them considering we're next door to the factory.

Here's a more comprehensive breakdown of the differences with pictures all consolidated into a single place. The argument is simply the fact that there are no differences other than color and this plate between the LR and the Performance but there is a difference in acceleration. I highly doubt Tesla has changed the brake pads or fluid between trims. We could be wrong but either way their verbiage is a little misleading don't you think?

Model Y Performance no longer receives Brembo rear calipers - let's br

A comprehensive breakdown of all changes made to the Model Y Performance trim after 8/15/22. Mando versus Brembo rear calipers!!!!!

zevcentric.com

Realistically, what are the chances Tesla will switch back to Brembos in rear? Change the verbiage when up-selling the Performance models? Sure. But it’s evident to me that it was done as a cost savings measure and perhaps impacted by supply chain issues, which is speculative since I doubt there is a Tesla decision maker partaking in this discussion. If we all agreed that it was misleading in terms of how the Performance Y is marketed then what’s the recourse? What do you propose be done about it? Who among us is willing to lead the “false advertising” charge against Tesla and file a class action lawsuit? If the decision to “downgrade” the rear calipers was a result of an executive decision, would it not be more feasible to assume that there is a disconnect in communication between the decision makers and the team responsible for ensuring the messaging is consistent and the “performance” features be accurately reflected in the marketing strategy?

Personally, “performance” itself can be a misnomer depending on who you talk to and how they define it. I think “sport package” would be less assuming and lower the bar on customer expectations if applied since things can be made to look “sporty” but don’t necessarily have to deliver on performance. Probably a poor choice of marketing terms for Tesla, and from my limited experience with the brand, I’d love to take a crack at heading their communication strategy.

 

[thesmokingman]

Brake cooling is really a stretch of a statement there, he could have left that out. When's the last time anyone boiled the rear brakes? Never! And a change of the swept area vs clamping pressure, that I assumed they tuned the brake balance further. The rear sizing doesn't matter unto itself, it is always in relation to the front balance!

 

[Killer Junior]

Brake cooling is really a stretch of a statement there, he could have left that out. When's the last time anyone boiled the rear brakes? Never! And a change of the swept area vs clamping pressure, that I assumed they tuned the brake balance further. The rear sizing doesn't matter unto itself, it is always in relation to the front balance!

I’ve only been around here a short time, but you seem to always have an objective non-emotional view on things, which I personally find refreshing given the current state of the world and prevalent attitude towards many things. Cheers.

 

[thesmokingman]

Check out this icon pic. Yep that is a single piston big ass slider with carbon ceramic rotors on the rear of an AMG GTR. Like I wrote before 2/4pots on the rear is bling and more of an apropos to fashion matching.

 

[240vPlug]

The P brakes are definitely stronger brakes then the LR. I have had both. I have a 5/22 built P that I took delivery on 6/4.

You will definitely notice if you try to panic stop. My LR scared me a few times. Brakes seemed undersides for the vehicle weight and performance on the LR. This is really disappointing.

 

[whisperingshad]

The P brakes are definitely stronger brakes then the LR. I have had both. I have a 5/22 built P that I took delivery on 6/4.

You will definitely notice if you try to panic stop. My LR scared me a few times. Brakes seemed undersides for the vehicle weight and performance on the LR. This is really disappointing.

Article said the change was in August, so you got the good ones

 

[P3D-R]

Check out this icon pic. Yep that is a single piston big ass slider with carbon ceramic rotors on the rear of an AMG GTR. Like I wrote before 2/4pots on the rear is bling and more of an apropos to fashion matching.

The primary argument is that Tesla alludes to the fact that there is a difference between the Long Range and the Performance model brakes, which no longer is the case. Secondly, logic would dictate that they would also make the change to the Model 3 Performance which they have not. The P3D still has the Brembos. I can only assume they feel that the Model Y P owner is not the type of consumer to justify such a part. That's much more logical to me. Tesla is more likely doing this to improve their margins by moving to the Mando caliper and associated rotor. I understand that many want to defer back to function and compare other high powered luxury vehicles that have similar Mando calipers and so forth but that doesn't change the marketing/verbiage aspect. Not to mention that Tesla set their own precedent for this. The product changed but the verbiage did not. Even if it's all bling I'd be happy knowing I am getting that "upgrade".