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Going to order a new Model 3 performance. Should I consider the long range AWD?

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That I understand. Back when I was ordering my 09 Cobalt SS Turbo, it had the 4 piston Brembo brakes (very rare at the time for a factory option especially on a car that was so inexpensive at the time) and its stopping performance was comparable to the Mazdaspeed3 with its single? or double sliding caliper pistons. The Brembos were more fade resistant at the track. Tires did make a bigger difference for straight line stopping.

But did you see how the M3P 0-60 was only 0.5 seconds slower than the LR AWD in the CarWow video? Theoretically if that LR had the Accel Boost, it would match the M3P for 0-60 in that video. I know the advertised 0-60 is 3.1 with 1-ft rollout, but its the odd inconsistencies I'll come across from time to time. Like it's a software issue or power delivery issue.



As others have explained, brakes have nothing to do with reducing stopping distance, only in (under heavy/track abuse) maintaining that distance over repeatedly hard stops via reduced fade.

If you want to stop shorter you need better tires, not better brakes. Take 2 identical cars, give one PS4s tires and stock factory brakes. Give the other MXM4 tires and the biggest most expensive brake kit you can pay someone $20,000 to custom make.

Now test braking distance from highway speed. The car with the stock brakes and better tires will stop dozens of feet shorter.

The brakes don't stop the car- the tires do.


As to 0-60 that carwow video isn't very well calibrated, humans are pretty bad measuring devices. The P genuinely is a full second faster to 60 without the boost, and about half a second faster with it.

here's the actual performance differences along the way between the versions, all from actual owners using actual calibrated test data from draggy (or canbus in the case of power output)

LRAWD2.png




THAT said... at higher speeds the difference basically vanishes (compare the time gaps 0-60 to the time gaps at ~115-120 at the end of the 1/4 mile), so if you're talking 70 mph rolls the P isn't getting you much of anything compared to the 0-60 portion... but track mode, if you actually track the car, is quite valuable.
 
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So do we know for sure if the newer LR's and P's have different rear drives? I thought at one point someone said they had the same rear drives (980s?) and the differences were in the inverters.
They used to have the same 980 / 3D1 motor, now the LRs have the 990 / 3D5. Supposedly the only difference between the two is the inverter having more MOSFETs or something.
 
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Appreciate the input! The one concern that seems to be echoed is that the 20" wheel/tires kind of gimp the daily driver aspect of the M3P. I talked to a co-worker that has a 21 Model S about tire sizes and he mentioned he just got some sidewall bubbles and is now looking at smaller wheel options. So if I get the M3P, I'd have to spend almost $3k for 18" wheels/tires or maybe 245/35R20 DWS06s for extra durability. I'm all for performance but don't like the idea of thin sidewall tires.

is there any advantage to the regen adjustment for maximizing efficiency? When I went on a road trip out west to the Rockies, there were a lot of steep grades where an ICE vehicle would coast downhill to 80-90+ mph without engine braking.

I could see the Track Mode being useful/fun on roads like Tail of the Dragon or other twisties like you mentioned.
@metroplex Yup the M3P 20" wheels are a liability. I ordered 18s before we even picked up the car. With good performance tires there's no downside to 18s except for looks, it was actually a performance and efficiency upgrade thanks to better tires + much lighter wheels. You can sell the stock wheels+tires to recoup much of that cost, though I'm keeping mine.

Our S P85 came with a similar 245/35R21 setup and one of the wheels cracked just driving normally down a typical nasty unmaintained road. Downsized it to 19s and never looked back. Don't want to deal with that again, on any car.

Yes I like Track Mode for fast twisty road driving, which I do a lot of. The extra strong regen makes for a better and more efficient one pedal experience at a faster pace. And I like 50/50 handling balance for the twisties
, because I want max traction and *don't* want any power oversteer on such roads. (The nannies aren't really an issue for me on tight twisty roads...I'm not trying to drive 10/10ths when I'm on a narrow road next to a cliff!)

The other times I use or will use Track Mode are playing around on empty highway ramps late at night (more rare for me), and someday when I take this car in the snow I'll definitely want Track Mode from what I've read - I'm used to AWD cars with no nannies. I may also try autox in this car...not to ever be competitive, just for fun. I used to do track days years ago but that isn't in the cards for me or this car anytime soon. (I would love to drive a well prepped M3P on a track someday!)
 
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As others have explained, brakes have nothing to do with reducing stopping distance, only in (under heavy/track abuse) maintaining that distance over repeatedly hard stops via reduced fade.

If you want to stop shorter you need better tires, not better brakes. Take 2 identical cars, give one PS4s tires and stock factory brakes. Give the other MXM4 tires and the biggest most expensive brake kit you can pay someone $20,000 to custom make.

Now test braking distance from highway speed. The car with the stock brakes and better tires will stop dozens of feet shorter.

The brakes don't stop the car- the tires do.


As to 0-60 that carwow video isn't very well calibrated, humans are pretty bad measuring devices. The P genuinely is a full second faster to 60 without the boost, and about half a second faster with it.

here's the actual performance differences along the way between the versions, all from actual owners using actual calibrated test data from draggy (or canbus in the case of power output)

View attachment 818480



THAT said... at higher speeds the difference basically vanishes (compare the time gaps 0-60 to the time gaps at ~115-120 at the end of the 1/4 mile), so if you're talking 70 mph rolls the P isn't getting you much of anything compared to the 0-60 portion... but track mode, if you actually track the car, is quite valuable.
Are there any similar charts for the hairpin motor M3Ps? That CarWow car might be new enough to be one of those, though I always assumed the hairpin should be faster. Edit: Now that I think of it, don't some of the Chinese built cars come with LG 79kW batteries instead of the Panasonic 82kW ones? Wonder if that's making the difference.
 
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@metroplex Yup the M3P 20" wheels are a liability. I ordered 18s before we even picked up the car. With good performance tires there's no downside to 18s except for looks, it was actually a performance and efficiency upgrade thanks to better tires + much lighter wheels. You can sell the stock wheels+tires to recoup much of that cost, though I'm keeping mine.

Our S P85 came with a similar 245/35R21 setup and one of the wheels cracked just driving normally down a typical nasty unmaintained road. Downsized it to 19s and never looked back. Don't want to deal with that again, on any car.

Yes I like Track Mode for fast twisty road driving, which I do a lot of. The extra strong regen makes for a better and more efficient one pedal experience at a faster pace. And I like 50/50 handling balance for the twisties
, because I want max traction and *don't* want any power oversteer on such roads. (The nannies aren't really an issue for me on tight twisty roads...I'm not trying to drive 10/10ths when I'm on a narrow road next to a cliff!)

The other times I use or will use Track Mode are playing around on empty highway ramps late at night (more rare for me), and someday when I take this car in the snow I'll definitely want Track Mode from what I've read - I'm used to AWD cars with no nannies. I may also try autox in this car...not to ever be competitive, just for fun. I used to do track days years ago but that isn't in the cards for me or this car anytime soon. (I would love to drive a well prepped M3P on a track someday!)
what wheels did u switch to? and how much of a performance upgrade is there from switching to smaller wheels? and how much efficiency?
 
metroplex said:
The bigger brakes on the Perf don't seem to translate to better braking
This is something that’s not terribly well understood.
The larger brakes on the Perf do next to nothing with regard to stopping distance. What they do though is reduce brake fade. This matters greatly at the track; in normal everyday driving, it’s absolutely meaningless.

Very true, but there is an even bigger variable in play that enhances street handling and braking distances in Performance - better stock tires (PS4S's on Performance vs. all-season junk on other models).

The tires you choose will make a much, much, much bigger impact on stopping distance than the size difference.

Absolutely true.

So … yeah. Choosing the Performance model for better street braking is a poor use of funds. Choosing it because you like the red underline, or the pedal covers is a much better reason.

FWIW, the four (4) primarily reasons I went with Performance over LR 3+ years ago, roughly in order of importance to me:
  • P comes with decent summer tires, which is EXACTLY what I would have spent money upgrading to had I bought LR
  • P come with decent Brembo brakes, which meant a great deal to me after reading the reports of regular Model 3's and S's overheating their pads on track (neither Model 3 nor S have active brake duct cooling). I also appreciate a more gradual and predictable brake pad grab on the street as well.
  • P comes with the TrackMode that both allows one to disable over-intrusive Tesla traction control nannies, as well as cool the batteries more effectively to mitigate heat sync that kills performance. This was, actually, more meaningful then a bit faster acceleration.
  • P comes with a bit faster acceleration, putting a slightly bigger smile on my face when I got WOT. In retrospect, this is the least meaningful difference.
The above are clearly worth way more then the $5K difference in price between P and LR.

In fact, as my car is approaching warranty expiration threshold in under a year, I will most likely sell the old P and get a new P.
I will probably buy the new before selling the old, just so that I can keep my old P-wheels and ditch the fugly looking 20’’ Überturbines while selling the old car.

YMMV,
a
 
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Supposedly the front brakes are Brembos on the non-P as well. Main difference is bigger rotor and the bling from the red paint. If you really wanted you could add the rear spoiler, wider rotors, paint your calipers red, invest in better suspension for the LR w/boost and have a better all around car than the P.

OTOH I love the stealth aspect of the LR w/boost. I pulled my dual motor badge and it looks even slower. I don't need to advertise my car is quick.

While my Model S is quicker than my LR (or the M3P) to 60, I don't feel like I got in a slow car when I get back into from the S. It isn't like a difference where I feel something like "OMG, this is such a slow car!" We at least I don't when I hit the throttle below 60 mph. However when above 60 mph, the S just crushes my 3 w/boost and would do the same to the M3P. That is where I feel the 3 is slow and the P doesn't change that feeling at all compared to the S. The S just has really long legs.

The problem with the P, is one there is a better P, which I hope there will be some day, the halo car in the model range takes the biggest hit in resale because it is no long top dog. There is a new and faster hotness, and the current P will be old news. The somewhat vanilla LR won't be impacted as much unless it is a MAJOR refresh.
 
what wheels did u switch to? and how much of a performance upgrade is there from switching to smaller wheels? and how much efficiency?
@Blacktes24 I switched to 245/45R18 Bridgestone Potenza Sport tires on 18x8.5" ET35 Titan7 T-S5 forged wheels. The wheels are a direct fit made for the M3P, no centering rings or spacers needed, they're bored for the "stepped lip" hub and the offset is correct to match stock fitment.

The performance/grip upgrade is from better tires not the wheels. The Potenza Sport grip better dry and wet than the OE PZ4, wasn't even close. The Potenza Sport also don't squeal in hard driving like the PZ4 did. I took off the original wheels+tires after 1k miles so my comparison is with fresh tires, not worn out old ones.

I credit the smaller, much lighter wheels with improving efficiency/range. I don't have consistent driving, but it became easier to hit the M3P's EPA rated efficiency when driving casually, e.g. cruising 70-73 mph on flat highway, or taking it easy in the twisties (not hammer down in Track Mode 😄). My guess - just a guess - is taller sidewalls / shorter spoke area is more aero than big wheels with longer spokes, and of course lighter weight should help with acceleration and deceleration efficiency. Maybe these tires have less rolling resistance too, but I'm skeptical cause they stick better and are still max performance category.

The power steering also felt better with the lighter wheel+tire combo, like it became easier to toss the car through very tight back-and-forth turns.

No loss of steering precision or responsiveness that I could tell with 100% stock suspension. The stock slow steering response and mushiness was still there, it just didn't get any worse that I could detect. The Potenza Sport are reputed to have very sturdy sidewalls, I think that helps when going to a taller sidewall. (Now with Redwood Sport Öhlins DFV coilovers and MPP FLCA bearings, I could probably detect much more subtle changes in tire responsiveness than stock!)

Ride quality improved too of course, by taking the edge off everything. The taller sidewalls did NOT change the overall character of the ride, still kind of bouncy and busy with the stock suspension, but the taller sidewalls took the edge off everything. (Now the coilovers sure changed the whole character of the ride, in addition to the handling, but that's a separate topic from wheels and tires...)



So what were the downsides? Well besides losing the big wheel look, really just two:

The OE PZ4 with their foam liner were slightly quieter cruising on the highway (but noisier in hard driving as mentioned). I don't know how much of that is thanks to the Tesla-spec foam liner. The Potenza Sport noise level is fine though, I've had much louder performance tires, these are fine and don't bother me.

18" is a snug fit over the M3P PUP brakes especially the parking brake in the rear. Wheel weights need to be placed carefully to avoid any rubbing issues. Basically can't do weights on the inside of the barrel. Avoid thick weights. Tire shops should get this right but don't always, point this out to them nicely up front and check their work carefully afterwards.
 
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I know the DWS06's are darn near bulletproof tires. I've seen them handle so much abuse first hand that I couldn't believe the tires would be intact, like the person hitting curb straight on at 45 mph (not at an angle but straight on running over the high curb) shearing off part of the wheel but the tire was fine. Hitting curbs at an angle numerous times and potholes, etc...

But from another thread it looks like Tesla is equipping newer LR's with the older LED reflector headlights and the Performance with the Matrix. The reflectors are brighter, throwing light about 24 ft further in the straight ahead section. The matrix/projectors have more lighting everywhere else. I know which headlights I want, and they're not the matrix/projectors based on experience.
 
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here in the Dallas - Ft. Worth area any Tesla wheels larger than 18" are getting eaten up by pot-holes and bad roads... a look in the Facebook forum of the local group reveals weekly posts of damaged wheels and blown tires... so the 18" gives you better efficiency, cheaper tires, better ride comfort and additional protection against wheel and tire damage... I personally don't get the obsession with large wheels which are purely cosmetic and higher margin for Tesla and tire manufacturers
 
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here in the Dallas - Ft. Worth area any Tesla wheels larger than 18" are getting eaten up by pot-holes and bad roads... a look in the Facebook forum of the local group reveals weekly posts of damaged wheels and blown tires... so the 18" gives you better efficiency, cheaper tires, better ride comfort and additional protection against wheel and tire damage... I personally don't get the obsession with large wheels which are purely cosmetic and higher margin for Tesla and tire manufacturers
@texas_star_TM3 I agree with you in general and I put 18" wheels on my M3P. The 18s are a very snug fit over the brakes especially the rear parking brake. To be honest I can't really see any car maker offering 18" wheels over these brakes from the factory, too likely for tire shops to mess up with the wheel weights, and any bending on the inner lip could take out the parking brake.

None of that is a problem for me, or for anyone in tune with maintaining their car. I'm real happy with 18" and wouldn't trade them for 19" even at the same cost. But I think if Tesla were to shrink the M3P PUP wheel, it could only be to 19", I don't think 18" is realistic for an OEM fitment over these brakes.
 
@texas_star_TM3 I agree with you in general and I put 18" wheels on my M3P. The 18s are a very snug fit over the brakes especially the rear parking brake. To be honest I can't really see any car maker offering 18" wheels over these brakes from the factory, too likely for tire shops to mess up with the wheel weights, and any bending on the inner lip could take out the parking brake.

None of that is a problem for me, or for anyone in tune with maintaining their car. I'm real happy with 18" and wouldn't trade them for 19" even at the same cost. But I think if Tesla were to shrink the M3P PUP wheel, it could only be to 19", I don't think 18" is realistic for an OEM fitment over these brakes.
What about the 18" wheels from TSportline? They claim their 18" wheels fit fine. I could see the wheel weight being an issue if it is a snug fit, but I don't think they'd offer them for the Performance if that was a concern?
 
What about the 18" wheels from TSportline? They claim their 18" wheels fit fine. I could see the wheel weight being an issue if it is a snug fit, but I don't think they'd offer them for the Performance if that was a concern?
@metroplex You can modify your car in many ways with aftermarket parts that no carmaker would ever spec from the factory on a mass produced car. If Tesla wanted to combine 18" wheels with the PUP brakes - which clearly they don't - maybe they would reshape/redesign the parking brake for more clearance.

I'm sure the Tsportline 18s fit fine. So do my Titan7 18s. It's going to be a snug fit that's all, especially around the parking brake, and there are things to keep in mind with that. Wheel weight placement and thickness being the primary one. Also easier for a rock to get stuck between the brake and wheel, I think. Stuff happens. Still way less risky than driving around on the stock 20s!
 
This has been discussed extensively, and I always recommended the LR if it's mostly a daily driver and will rarely or never go to the track. However, with the price gap now only $3k, the Performance model makes much more sense economically for all the goodies you get.
 
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