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Gov consultation on petrol/diesel new car sales ban - details of response

NorfolkMustard

Active Member
Apr 18, 2019
2,140
2,073
M3P w/FSD
The Gov published their full response to the consultation today


Some points I noted
We can guess where this came from coughtoyotacough


6E88A0D8-D2B5-4E6A-B111-CFCF17D2C3D0.jpeg


All charge points to be mandated to be smart, not just those eligible for a grant

6D5EACF6-51F9-4276-9F98-F80689F55213.jpeg


We know this both makes sense and was expected, but it’s the first time I’ve seen it acknowledged

33AF95BE-5277-478F-B777-80A16FDB9C64.jpeg
 

Jez_GB

Supporting Member
Dec 28, 2019
430
311
Nottinghamshire, UK
Clearly, and as you suggest, part of the response was sponsored by a major producer of hybrids - "HEV's are able to achieve significant proportions of mileage and time in zero emission mode". Sadly I think this holds true, certainly in the UK. A quick Google suggest the average HEV will cover around 30 miles on a single charge and the average daily work commute is about the same.
 

phil4

Member
Sep 8, 2020
286
158
UK
Unfortunately we need to split HEV and PHEV.

Yes, a PHEV can achieve 30 miles on a single charge... which is pretty good for a lot of journeys in the UK. But this is only true if it's charged up... which has been shown to not happen quite so often.

Unfortunately a HEV can't achieve any miles on a charge because it can't be charged by anything apart from it's own engine (and a tiny amount from motion).

As such, it would make most sense to remove HEV from any special treatment/extensions, as they merely act to reduce CO2 in the same way a smaller engine would. No journey is really emission free.
 

Jason71

Active Member
May 8, 2019
2,418
2,158
Shropshire
Clearly, and as you suggest, part of the response was sponsored by a major producer of hybrids - "HEV's are able to achieve significant proportions of mileage and time in zero emission mode". Sadly I think this holds true, certainly in the UK. A quick Google suggest the average HEV will cover around 30 miles on a single charge and the average daily work commute is about the same.
I have a petrol car that "is able to" achieve zero emissions if I choose to push it everywhere instead of driving it. Of course I never actually do that......
 

Killer_Catz

Member
Nov 13, 2020
60
21
UK
Unfortunately we need to split HEV and PHEV.

Yes, a PHEV can achieve 30 miles on a single charge... which is pretty good for a lot of journeys in the UK. But this is only true if it's charged up... which has been shown to not happen quite so often.

Unfortunately a HEV can't achieve any miles on a charge because it can't be charged by anything apart from it's own engine (and a tiny amount from motion).

As such, it would make most sense to remove HEV from any special treatment/extensions, as they merely act to reduce CO2 in the same way a smaller engine would. No journey is really emission free.

My parents test drove a PHEV to see if it would do the 30 mile journey to my sisters, and it didn't manage it. On the cold morning the car ran on petrol to heat up the battery before it went to electric mode. In they end they went back to a standard hybrid.

They are watching with interest, as I'm the first person in the family to experiment with a full electric car...
 

phil4

Member
Sep 8, 2020
286
158
UK
My parents test drove a PHEV to see if it would do the 30 mile journey to my sisters, and it didn't manage it. On the cold morning the car ran on petrol to heat up the battery before it went to electric mode. In they end they went back to a standard hybrid.

They are watching with interest, as I'm the first person in the family to experiment with a full electric car...
I get that... but at least it's theoretically possible, and likely to be close to 30 in the warmer months.

But a self-charging hybrid just can't. It can only charge itself using it's engine to any real degree (regen will be tiny). So for example if you bought a PHEV, and charged it every day, and only drove it 10-20 miles to the shops or whatever... you could probably get very close to 0 emissions.

If you did the same in a self-charging hybrid the best you'd not even get close. It's a good way to increase your mpg... but unlike a PHEV there's no even theoretical way you could run 0 emissions for any period of time.
 

Simavon

Member
Nov 12, 2019
53
32
Somerset
I could manage summertime 30 miles but not winter. I found the only thing that seemed to cause the engine to start in winter was hitting the front demist button, below a certain temperature this seems to cause it to start the engine. YMMV, there are some very poor implementations of PHEV out there. The Model 3 achieves worse WH/mile in pretty much all conditions due to being heavier, higher rolling resistance tyres, and the lack of a heat pump. If there was workplace charging it'd be a wash, but there isn't. However, coming home in summer, with the battery discharged, I've achieved up to 90mpg in the PHEV which is 75g/km, and typically 80mpg, or about 85g. Model 3 would be around 50g/km with typical grid electricity in the uk. So if I did one way electric in the PHEV, with its lower consumption in Wh/mile than the Tesla, the saving of the Tesla doesn't seem that great, considering the cost.
 

ParHunter

Member
Nov 2, 2020
114
30
Surrey, UK
I never bought into PHEVs (and certainly not HEVs). PHEVs are not the best of the two worlds but rather a combination of the limitation of both worlds. Low battery range, higher costs, servicing requirements from the petrol engine etc. So you don’t get any of the advantages of an electric car (apart from being able to drive maybe 30miles on electric) like additional space (no engine, flat floor), lower servicing requirements, less moving parts that can break.
 

Jason71

Active Member
May 8, 2019
2,418
2,158
Shropshire
I never bought into PHEVs (and certainly not HEVs). PHEVs are not the best of the two worlds but rather a combination of the limitation of both worlds. Low battery range, higher costs, servicing requirements from the petrol engine etc. So you don’t get any of the advantages of an electric car (apart from being able to drive maybe 30miles on electric) like additional space (no engine, flat floor), lower servicing requirements, less moving parts that can break.
if you drive less than 10 miles to work or less than 30 with charging at work then with the current cost of EV's paying for that big battery and then using a fraction of it is just too expensive for most at present since there is little fuel cost to off set it against. Enter the PHEV. mind you my wife does so few miles even the cost premium of a PHEV would never have paid off in pure monetary terms. most are big expensive cars. There are no PHEV ford KA's or equivalent. For low mileage city driving a small efficient petrol supermini is still the best option for most.
 

Adopado

Active Member
Aug 19, 2019
3,251
2,413
Scotland
Unfortunately a HEV can't achieve any miles on a charge because it can't be charged by anything apart from it's own engine (and a tiny amount from motion).

I think sufficient to say "it can't be charged by anything apart from it's own engine" ... the only motion that is used for charging is also a direct result of the engine ... the car would be stationary otherwise.
 
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Rajanm1

Member
Aug 1, 2019
603
156
UK
Anything about standardising all the apps or does it look like we will now need to download even more and expect more chargers to be badly maintained?
 

GRiLLA

Member
Jul 5, 2020
429
414
UK
I think sufficient to say "it can't be charged by anything apart from it's own engine" ... the only motion that is used for charging is also a direct result of the engine ... the car would be stationary otherwise.
Toyota owners all live at the top of massive hills, with strong tailwinds.
 

Dilly

Active Member
Feb 24, 2020
1,438
1,066
Norfolk
We have an Outlander PHEV. It’s basic task is for Mrs D to ferry the dogs to dog agility classes/shows, take them somewhere for walkies etc
it’s also good for snowy weather, long distance trips with dogs and anything else the Tesla won’t be used for.
we’ve done 14K miles. My stats bear out that roughly, the engine has done about 3.5K miles and the other 10.5K was on electric.
I reckon it was a good choice for what it does. it hasn’t needed anything to repaired or replaced.
 

Imran145

Member
Mar 10, 2021
7
1
Yorkshire
The Gov published their full response to the consultation today


Some points I noted
We can guess where this came from coughtoyotacough


6E88A0D8-D2B5-4E6A-B111-CFCF17D2C3D0.jpeg


All charge points to be mandated to be smart, not just those eligible for a grant

6D5EACF6-51F9-4276-9F98-F80689F55213.jpeg


We know this both makes sense and was expected, but it’s the first time I’ve seen it acknowledged

33AF95BE-5277-478F-B777-80A16FDB9C64.jpeg
No sign of any changes to the incentives when purchasing an EV?
 

Irata

Member
Oct 16, 2020
277
155
UK
It's important to factor in that the move to EV's is just part of the move to net zero. Alongside everything else, electricity generation will also need to be net zero, etc etc.

Along that journey, there will be a point when PHEV/HEV vehicles become a big problem towards that target. The maths today won't be the maths in 10 years time, well hopefully anyway.

The bit about taxation is interesting, there is a hint that PHEV/HEV will eventually be hit with increasing tax once petrol/diesel cars have been hit as much as can be.
 

NorfolkMustard

Active Member
Apr 18, 2019
2,140
2,073
M3P w/FSD
By then, my guess is it will be a new tax across the board for all cars, irrespective of method of propulsion, thereby penalising ICE more (‘cause they’ll also have fuel duty, VED too). Probably a simple mileage tax is my guess, pay for it with your MOT.. and/or a tyre tax (because tyre particulates will be the main menace by then)
 

Irata

Member
Oct 16, 2020
277
155
UK
They've never applied a new system to cars purchased by a previous system, well as far as I can remember anyway.

Obviously a new system will be introduced one day, that's inevitable. By then all cars for sale will be very different emissions to the ones today.

They will increase the tax for those on today's system, hence there is a hint that tax for any car with greater than zero emission will increase significantly and that drags all PHEV/HEV vehicles into higher and higher taxation. Hence, I think they'll eventually be taxed heavy
 

Jason71

Active Member
May 8, 2019
2,418
2,158
Shropshire
They've never applied a new system to cars purchased by a previous system, well as far as I can remember anyway.

Obviously a new system will be introduced one day, that's inevitable. By then all cars for sale will be very different emissions to the ones today.

They will increase the tax for those on today's system, hence there is a hint that tax for any car with greater than zero emission will increase significantly and that drags all PHEV/HEV vehicles into higher and higher taxation. Hence, I think they'll eventually be taxed heavy
You are correct that it is generally not the case that new schemes of VED are re-respectively applied to existing vehicles so I would not expect any of the existing zero VED EV's to be hit with a bit VED increase at any point though small incremental increases are possible.
That said if a new system like road pricing is introduced don't expect to be grandfathered out of that one!
 
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