Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Government regulations of L2 driver assist systems

MP3Mike

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2016
15,334
33,246
Oregon
Yes, but they have done millions of miles of autonomous driving. Waymo reported 1.4 million miles of autonomous driving to the CA DMV for the 2019 year. Tesla only reported 12 miles.

But if we go by reported stats Tesla is the only one that reported a 0% disengagement rate. :eek:

But even those companies say that the CA autonomous driving reports are completely worthless. Tesla could have done 10 billion miles of autonomous driving in CA, with the nag enabled, and they wouldn't have to report any of it. (i.e. they are keeping their progress, or lack of progress, secret.)
 

diplomat33

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
7,111
8,159
Terre Haute, IN USA
But if we go by reported stats Tesla is the only one that reported a 0% disengagement rate. :eek:

But even those companies say that the CA autonomous driving reports are completely worthless. Tesla could have done 10 billion miles of autonomous driving in CA, with the nag enabled, and they wouldn't have to report any of it. (i.e. they are keeping their progress, or lack of progress, secret.)

You can't be serious.

First of all, they never said that the CA disengagement report was worthless. They said that the report was the not the one best metric to measure autonomous driving. In other words, the report does provide some info, but not all the info needed to judge how good the autonomous driving is because there are a lot of factors.

And if the report is so meaningless, why do any companies report anything? Why didn't Waymo do its 1.4 million miles of autonomous driving and not report it?

Second, surely you know that 0 disengagements out of 12 miles is too small a sample to measure anything. Also, you need at least 1 disengagement for the disengagement rate to mean anything.
 

MP3Mike

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2016
15,334
33,246
Oregon
And if the report is so meaningless, why do any companies report anything?

They report it because they are required to by law.

Why didn't Waymo do its 1.4 million miles of autonomous driving and not report it?

Waymo reported it because they were required to by law because they didn't have a driver attention nag enabled.

Also, you need at least 1 disengagement for the disengagement rate to mean anything.

Really? o_O If Tesla had 10 billion miles with 0 disengagements that number would be meaningless?
 

diplomat33

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
7,111
8,159
Terre Haute, IN USA
They report it because they are required to by law.

Yes, if Tesla did autonomous miles, even with the nag, they would be required to report it. Uber even got in trouble because they tried to do autonomous miles but not report it by claiming it was only L2.

If Tesla had 10 billion miles with 0 disengagements that number would be meaningless? o_O

Obviously, if Tesla did 10 billion miles with no disengagement that would not be meaningless. But they only reported 12 miles which is too small a sample size.
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: MP3Mike

MP3Mike

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2016
15,334
33,246
Oregon
Yes, if Tesla did autonomous miles, even with the nag, they would be required to report it. Uber even got in trouble because they tried to do autonomous miles but not report it by claiming it was only L2.

I suggest you go read the reporting requirements. Did Uber actually have a driver engagement nag enabled? Or were they just claiming L2 because they required a driver to monitor it? There is a big difference. (One requires reporting the other doesn't.)
 

Daniel in SD

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2018
6,281
8,937
San Diego
I suggest you go read the reporting requirements. Did Uber actually have a driver engagement nag enabled? Or were they just claiming L2 because they required a driver to monitor it? There is a big difference. (One requires reporting the other doesn't.)
Waymo has driver engagement monitoring and I bet everyone else does too. Doesn't really matter since the regulations say nothing about driver engagement monitoring.
 

MP3Mike

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2016
15,334
33,246
Oregon
Waymo has driver engagement monitoring and I bet everyone else does too. Doesn't really matter since the regulations say nothing about driver engagement monitoring.

Well there is this:
(1) An autonomous test vehicle does not include vehicles equipped with one or more systems that provide driver assistance and/or enhance safety benefits but are not capable of, singularly or in combination, performing the dynamic driving task on a sustained basis without the constant control or active monitoring of a natural person.

If Tesla requires active monitoring it doesn't count as an "autonomous test vehicle".
 
  • Like
Reactions: mspisars

Daniel in SD

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2018
6,281
8,937
San Diego
If Tesla requires active monitoring it doesn't count as an "autonomous test vehicle".
There's also this:
SAE J3016 said:
the level of driving automation system feature corresponds to the feature’s production design intent ... As such, it is incorrect to classify a level 4 design-intended ADS feature equipped on a test vehicle as level 2 simply because on-road testing requires a test driver to supervise the feature while engaged, and to intervene if necessary to maintain safe operation.
For the purposes of this article, an “autonomous test vehicle” is equipped with technology that makes it capable of operation that meets the definition of Levels 3, 4, or 5 of the SAE International’s Taxonomy and Definitions for Terms Related to Driving Automation Systems for On-Road Motor Vehicles, standard J3016 (SEP2016), which is hereby incorporated by reference.
 

diplomat33

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
7,111
8,159
Terre Haute, IN USA
@mspisars did you know that Waymo's lidar can identify pedestrians, detect what direction they are facing in order to predict their movements? Waymo's Lidar can also see hand signals from cyclists to predict the path a cyclist is planning to take.
 

mspisars

Active Member
May 23, 2014
2,136
1,487
Charlotte, NC
@mspisars did you know that Waymo's lidar can identify pedestrians, detect what direction they are facing in order to predict their movements? Waymo's Lidar can also see hand signals from cyclists to predict the path a cyclist is planning to take.
Yes, they spend an inordinate amount of time and money writing vision for lidar.

And I think it's I wasted effort that should have been used by them to work on computer/camera vision.

I've been very clear where I stand.
First company to have a solution available to unrestricted general public use, not necessarily for purchase, but for general public use, wins!
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: linux-works

Daniel in SD

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2018
6,281
8,937
San Diego
First company to have a solution available to unrestricted general public use, not necessarily for purchase, but for general public use, wins!
Haha. That is very often not the case in tech.
People who invested in Iridium know something about that. Turns out making phones that only work in 90% of places was a much better business than making phones that work everywhere.
 

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top