TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Grab & Go EV technology already available for EU manufacturers?

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by Lukas99, Sep 21, 2016.

  1. Lukas99

    Lukas99 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2016
    Messages:
    33
    Location:
    Czech Republic
    It seems like there is an interesting start-up based in Austria, as reported by Bloomberg... No ambition to build new cars, no big news and sensations behind... Idea is to develop off-the-shelf battery technology and drive train and offer it to major top tier car manufacturers on grab & go basis...

    This could fundamentally accelerate R&D for the likes of VW, Mercedes Benz or BMW... Seems like the guys have cracked an interesting business model. Also they note that they battery pack cost is at 140 USD/KWh and predict to reach 100USD level soon.

    Have a read!

    This Austrian Car Firm Has Tesla in its Sights
     
  2. Cloxxki

    Cloxxki Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2016
    Messages:
    269
    Location:
    Rotterdam
    #2 Cloxxki, Sep 22, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
    Interesting, thanks for sharing.
    So they use stock 18650 cells, but somehow get to deal with less heat issues and no balancing while getting more energy out. My German is insufficient to understand it all first time watching.
    Claimed battery specs seem impressive, KWh/kg and litres/kWh. Saving 100kg on a Tesla 85kWh pack at same capacity and as I understand, smaller volume? Of course, the Tesla yard stick is now at 100kWh actually. Especially for litres per kWh this is a good improvement to fight against for Kreisel.
    If they could make a pack to replace a Model S pack (using Tesla's latest 18650's), it might bring a good amount of extra range while saving weight and improving economy, it seems.

    I am struggling to find good graphics on the Porsche Panamera conversion they do. I love the looks of that car. Few Porsches do that to me. Saw one in the street yesterday, so iconic.
    So they did the Panamera conversion without affecting interior space. Keeping the 7-speed gearbox (and 4WD?) the former of which is which apparently is key in reaching 330kph on similar output figures to the P85 drivetrain which goes up to about 250kph.

    If all true, especially the Germans should be jumping on this company to get them the Tesla killers they by now simply need to be taken seriously by a market shifting over to EV's.
     
  3. Booga

    Booga Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2016
    Messages:
    362
    Location:
    Ohio
    This is what I think Tesla was hoping to do - they made the Roadster to prove it and tried to pitch it to Smart car executives, Toyota, etc. to get them to develop EV's using the Tesla battery packs. My guess is that they didn't see automakers have the same desire and so they had to go out and build the Model S, Model X, and Model 3 themselves.
     
    • Like x 1
  4. Cloxxki

    Cloxxki Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2016
    Messages:
    269
    Location:
    Rotterdam
    You mean that Kreisel is persuing Tesla's old dream?
     
    • Like x 1
  5. Booga

    Booga Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2016
    Messages:
    362
    Location:
    Ohio
    Yes. If Tesla faced challenges despite having done so well, then I wouldn't be surprised if this team will face similar challenges. They compare specs of 1 unit they built versus a car that Tesla produces 2,000 of every week (I hope my number is right) and that isn't a fair comparison. There are so many things that matter when manufacturing this than just range, top speed, etc., because you still have to focus on safety, ability to withstand a very wide range of environments (freezing in Norway to summer heat in the middle of a desert), ability to produce in large volumes, etc.

    I'm sure these are intelligent people and so they will know what they're doing and how to get over the challenges that Tesla faced, but they must be that much better to do what Tesla tried to do and decided wasn't worth it. If they really had something just profoundly better, wouldn't they be better off just selling to Tesla who could incorporate these advances into their already existing cars?
     
  6. Cloxxki

    Cloxxki Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2016
    Messages:
    269
    Location:
    Rotterdam
    Well, if they sell something to Tesla, how could this be lucrative enough for both?

    Tesla is on a good upward slope of motor and battery technology still (I presume). At the very worst they have a 1-2 year deficit on Kreisel, but to implement it would take how long? If someone gets an edge with 18650 cells, Tesla will soon be at that level, an produce it cheaper.

    If the cell manufacturers are stepping it up now that Tesla and Panasonic have unleashed such a booming market, aftermarket style cells should become more and more compelling to base Kreisel-like initiatives around. And some may out-smart Tesla too get a better product at a decent price. The knowledge on safety and reliability is also leaking into the market now. Basic conversion kits are on the market that turn a classic car into a compelling BEV, which can be installed by a tech savvy person in a week. It's a low threshold technology. The future is already here.
    The conversion market could be a big one. If there are some countries left that actually give a decent tax break to BEV owners, it may be worthwhile to sell the engine and gearbox and tank from a good condition Mercedes/BMW/etc, and get an EV conversion at Kreisel. You drive in Mercedes style, but enjoy low taxes and a quasi clean conscience.

    Right now Tesla are focusing on 2170's. How do we know they don't already have machines prepared to in the future make twice as long and/or thick cells, as a random example?
     
  7. garsh

    garsh Re Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2016
    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    It looks like LG is already on their way to being able to offer this.

    They seem to be single-handedly responsible for the Chevy Bolt's battery & drivetrain. I don't see a startup being able to compete with them, assuming that LG wasn't made to sign an agreement to exclusively work with GM.
     
  8. jonnyg

    jonnyg Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2016
    Messages:
    171
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I was about to say the same thing.

    These startup guys may be able to compete when offering a solution to someone like Porsche though, with a small number of units and wanting the best possible tech. But yeah, LG probably has too much of a lead at the moment to lose on a contract like a Bolt.
     
  9. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    2,397
    Location:
    Los Angeles CA
    I think there are too many who mistake The MISSION of Tesla Motors. Some are among Enthusiasts, though most are numbered among Naysayers. Tesla could have been a Supplier of custom drivetrains for hybrids, plug-in hybrids, ICE conversions, and various compliance cars for like, EVER. They could have taken that path, and probably under the direction of a different CEO, would have done precisely that.

    The company would have become profitable long ago. There would have been no reason to go public at all. They would have been smaller, but with a continually growing stack of cash in the bank that would have made Scrooge McDuck green with envy. Compliance cars across the land would sport cute little badges that read 'Powered by TESLA'. And absolutely no one, anywhere, would have the slightest clue that it was possible with today's technology to have an affordable long range fully electric car. And the entire traditional automobile industry along with the petroleum industry would have been perfectly happy to make sure it remained that way for another 25 or 30 years.

    Personally, I'm glad it didn't go that way. It's not about making money. It's about making a difference.

    Only 16 brands have sold at least 200,000 units to US Customers so far in 2016, through August. So those are the only ones on pace to sell at least 300,000 units this year. Very few of the brands that sell less than that are independent firms, as most are part of larger automotive groups that sell other brands here too. Those independents would be the 'smaller companies' that I refer to.

    One of the traditional automobile manufacturers would have to break ranks with the rest. Currently even the least of them seem to be in line, a full lock step, progressing in rank and file, parade style in their eternal support and mutual commitment to ICE vehicles. It would be nice to see one of those companies that has shown potential for growth in the past manage to realize it by either going full electric, or introducing a product line that is fully electric within their brand. Someone perhaps like Volvo, Mitsubishi, or Mazda could manage the feat, I think.

    Volvo hasn't sold over 100,000 units in the US since 2007. They've only crossed 70,000 units twice during the interim. They could certainly use the influx of Customers that would come from interest in electric drive.​

    Mitsubishi also has not sold over 100,000 units here since 2007. But they have at least moved over 95,000 units twice, 2008 and 2015. Three times they sold less than 60,000 in the US over that time frame.​

    Mazda has actually not done too bad in recent years, compared to those two. They have sold at least 250,000 units for 14 years straight. Gradually increasing from a low of 207,767 in 2009 to reach 319,184 in 2015. But it seems their sales are slipping, as they've only moved 199,378 units through August 2016.​

    I hope one of them makes the move to electric. But I figure it most likely they never will. I find that unfortunate. Otherwise, it will require a bunch of much smaller companies to work toward the goal outside of the traditional automobile industry, and that would take much longer than should be necessary:

     
    • Like x 1

Share This Page