AMPd
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't that make their network worse.
Just like now with the whole throttling issue
Seems it would be best to just move on and wait out all the cars with unlimited SC access.
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Grandfather Free Supercharging Please
- Thread starter GKwey
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- CPO Model S Supercharging
Just like now with the whole throttling issue
Seems it would be best to just move on and wait out all the cars with unlimited SC access.
Not exactly sure what you mean but the supercharging network is an integral part of Tesla that Elon promotes as the ultimate are road trip car.
John Stuckey
Member
3Victoria
Active Member
Grandfather-free charging -- why are we trying to dissuade grandfathers from charging at superchargers??? That's discriminatory!
Oh ... nevermind!
Oh ... nevermind!
As a potential grandfather (current Model S owner, Model 3 ordered), I'm not sure I would agree. Lets put this in perspective:
power: at 333 Wh/mi => it costs ~3-4 cents per mile in juice
tires: ~20KMi / $1200 => it costs ~6 cents per mile in tires
insurance: ~12KMi / $400 => it costs ~3 cents per mile in insurance
maintenance: ~12KMi / $600 => it costs ~5 cents per mile to maintain (although one can skip that, but skipping would probably cost more in the long term)
depreciation -- lets say zero (assume we keep the car forever -- not real, but worst case scenario for our calculations)
So, lets say one runs 100% on superchargers -- one still pays 14c/mile if superchargers are always free and 17-18 c/mile if they are not. We're arguing about over 20% cost of ownership in the worst possible scenario, and much less in any common one (when home/destination charging is in the mix and depreciation is accounted for). In absolute terms, it's delta of ~$500/year on a ~$100K car. Tops.
I would gladly always pay for supercharging if that means I don't have to wait to plug in. In my case, that means I would pay ~1KMi or ~$33/year for supercharging. Never having to wait for a plug would save me much more if I value my time even at 1/10 of what it's worth.
Hey, I too had unlimited data from AT&T since 2002. Then they started to throttle that. I could've called and complained, but nothing would've changed (AT&T is big and they won't change billing system for a handful of users). Instead I switched to TMobile with free international data and I'm writing this internationally over that free data tethering now. That is to say that realities change and we live to appreciate different things at different times. I lived to appreciate my time (in case of access to available supercharger plug) and simplicity of data access (in case of TMobile free roaming) over unlimited-something that I never use. Everybody's realities are different, but most of the time the change is good and it moves us all forward.
power: at 333 Wh/mi => it costs ~3-4 cents per mile in juice
tires: ~20KMi / $1200 => it costs ~6 cents per mile in tires
insurance: ~12KMi / $400 => it costs ~3 cents per mile in insurance
maintenance: ~12KMi / $600 => it costs ~5 cents per mile to maintain (although one can skip that, but skipping would probably cost more in the long term)
depreciation -- lets say zero (assume we keep the car forever -- not real, but worst case scenario for our calculations)
So, lets say one runs 100% on superchargers -- one still pays 14c/mile if superchargers are always free and 17-18 c/mile if they are not. We're arguing about over 20% cost of ownership in the worst possible scenario, and much less in any common one (when home/destination charging is in the mix and depreciation is accounted for). In absolute terms, it's delta of ~$500/year on a ~$100K car. Tops.
I would gladly always pay for supercharging if that means I don't have to wait to plug in. In my case, that means I would pay ~1KMi or ~$33/year for supercharging. Never having to wait for a plug would save me much more if I value my time even at 1/10 of what it's worth.
Hey, I too had unlimited data from AT&T since 2002. Then they started to throttle that. I could've called and complained, but nothing would've changed (AT&T is big and they won't change billing system for a handful of users). Instead I switched to TMobile with free international data and I'm writing this internationally over that free data tethering now. That is to say that realities change and we live to appreciate different things at different times. I lived to appreciate my time (in case of access to available supercharger plug) and simplicity of data access (in case of TMobile free roaming) over unlimited-something that I never use. Everybody's realities are different, but most of the time the change is good and it moves us all forward.
rw86347
Member
I don't think you are doing the math. Most people go one one road trip during the life of their car, but lets say you do one 2000 mile road trip every year.
If you are getting 333 watt hours per mile and you are paying $0.12 per kWh then that means you are paying $0.04 per mile. Or $80 per trip, and although we would all like free better I would HATE to be stranded by cheap model 3 owners who are trying to get free charging because they can.
Now if you are one of those who uses SC when ever you can, well you are the reason free is going away.
BluestarE3
Active Member
whitex
Well-Known Member
Don't give them any ideas! If this happens, people on this forum will come looking for you to thank you.
whitex
Well-Known Member
Maybe I can put your mind at ease. If you find yourself in a situation where you value the free supercharging plan more than the car itself (just like you value your data plan more than the phone) then I'm willing to sell you such a plan. Say $100K for all-you-can-charge-on-Tesla-SC-network plan? I'm afraid I'll have to tie it to the car though, not the owner, but will sell you a plan each time you upgrade.
ev-now
Member
Why would they bother? Many existing vehicles were leased, their lifetime charging may well be removed on resale. Many owners are not using this benefit, so will not care on upgrade. So the grandfathered vehicles will gradually reduce. Suspect many people will not want to be fixing their old MS out of warranty either.
ev-now
Member
Not at all - they have no need to do this.
As no other vendor will offer you free fuel, you'll have to wait for a solar car (long wait!) or suck it up and lose the privilege which was only there to encourage people not to have range anxiety while they established the brand.
Check out the following video after 17:28. During a test drive, a Tesla employee says Tesla could cancel free supercharging once the car is not owned by the original owner anymore because there is nothing in the contract preventing them doing this. I thought that was an interesting argument. I don't think Tesla would do this but it is an additional data point worth mentioning.
@GKwey, what you want isn't going to happen. Tesla switched to pay as you go because of heavy users.
@GKwey, what you want isn't going to happen. Tesla switched to pay as you go because of heavy users.
whitex
Well-Known Member
This is covered in many other threads. Free supercharging is a software option that stays with the car, just like auto-pilot or 75KWh upgrade, or any other option. Tesla can only disable it if they own it, just like they can change wheels or repaint the car. Changing it on cars they don't own would be like Apple disabling storage or other features on an ipad after it is no longer with the original owner. Can it be technically done, absolutely, Legally, not so much.
Note that all CPO's are owned by Tesla, so once Tesla buys a car back to resell it, they can change anything they want, including painting it neon pink. If they repainted a car that was sold between 2 private parties, that would be a whole different legal issue. Today Tesla already does change options on CPO cars already (so far they've been reported to strip Ludicrous, add supercharging to old S60's sold without it, as well as max out the battery and enable auto-pilot).
Note that all CPO's are owned by Tesla, so once Tesla buys a car back to resell it, they can change anything they want, including painting it neon pink. If they repainted a car that was sold between 2 private parties, that would be a whole different legal issue. Today Tesla already does change options on CPO cars already (so far they've been reported to strip Ludicrous, add supercharging to old S60's sold without it, as well as max out the battery and enable auto-pilot).
I don't agree with the legality argument.
Free supercharging is software enabled but is not only software. It is access to a network. They can stop access to a network at any time for any reasonable reason. And they can change the goalposts. Some spots free, some not. 50 kw free, 100 kw costs. Whatever they want. There is no legal document that you have in your hand that promises 120 kw speed and every spot they build.
If you have a legal document specifying locations of charging spots, number of spots, speed of charging etc - please post.
But wait - false advertising! I don't need a legal document.... You mean like AP 1.0 that does everything that it said it would....
In my personal weird world, I know several Tesla owners, none of which have ever SCed over 400 kwh per year. Including me. I might have gotten close. But either way, I'm not sure the $20 I went over was a big decision maker for me.
Now unlimited data is a bit different. $600 for a phone to save $50 a month because you are a big data user - that makes sense.
Free supercharging is software enabled but is not only software. It is access to a network. They can stop access to a network at any time for any reasonable reason. And they can change the goalposts. Some spots free, some not. 50 kw free, 100 kw costs. Whatever they want. There is no legal document that you have in your hand that promises 120 kw speed and every spot they build.
If you have a legal document specifying locations of charging spots, number of spots, speed of charging etc - please post.
But wait - false advertising! I don't need a legal document.... You mean like AP 1.0 that does everything that it said it would....
In my personal weird world, I know several Tesla owners, none of which have ever SCed over 400 kwh per year. Including me. I might have gotten close. But either way, I'm not sure the $20 I went over was a big decision maker for me.
Now unlimited data is a bit different. $600 for a phone to save $50 a month because you are a big data user - that makes sense.
Dborn
Confirmed
Elon said repeatedly when supercharger were announced that their use would always be free for life! I choose to interpret that literally. If they hobble it in any way, restrict charge speed, wait in line behind paying customers etc, that, in my view is both breach of faith and breach of contract. An oral contract in my part of the world is legally binding.
No. Your documents say "Supercharging Enabled". Tesla can not disable supercharging on your car, that would be illegal. I agree with this.
What Tesla can legally do is to start charging you for using the supercharger on their end. Your car will still be Supercharging Enabled, just not for free anymore.
No one has yet shown ANYWHERE where it lists that "Supercharging Enabled" = "Supercharging for free for the life of the car". Because Tesla never wrote that on any documents they gave you.
Again, I don't think they'd do it, but legally it seems that can. IANAL.
AMPd
Well-Known Member
Holy **** can January 1st hurry up and get here so all this "they can take away your sc" "no they can't" "legally they can" "legally they can't" "they won't" "they should" "**** you **** you're the ****Ing reason they're doing this"
Talk can stop.
Talk can stop.
whitex
Well-Known Member
No true. You obviously missed "Free long distance travel on Tesla's expanding supercharger network" on the order page today. On previous order pages there was text "This allows you to drive for free from coast to coast or anywhere our growing network of Superchargers will take you". Both are a lot more explicit than "Supercharging Enabled".
That said, there such as thing as reasonable expectations. For example, my purchase contract with Tesla say I have to pay some amount of dollars, they don't explicitly say it's US dollars issued by US Federal Reserve, but it's a reasonable expectation and I'm sure an ALJ or a jury would find for Tesla if I tried paying them in Taiwan dollars instead. Heck, the contract doesn't even say it has to be an actual legal currency, so maybe I could find some board game with "dollars" and buy me a few P100D's with that?
What you get in any contract is not like a computer program, 100% unambiguous and written in a programming language. That's why there are legal systems which rely on "reasonable interpretation" concept.
I'll give you that, you're obviously more versed in law than I am.No true. You obviously missed "Free long distance travel on Tesla's expanding supercharger network" on the order page today. On previous order pages there was text "This allows you to drive for free from coast to coast or anywhere our growing network of Superchargers will take you". Both are a lot more explicit than "Supercharging Enabled".
That said, there such as thing as reasonable expectations. For example, my purchase contract with Tesla say I have to pay some amount of dollars, they don't explicitly say it's US dollars issued by US Federal Reserve, but it's a reasonable expectation and I'm sure an ALJ or a jury would find for Tesla if I tried paying them in Taiwan dollars instead. Heck, the contract doesn't even say it has to be an actual legal currency, so maybe I could find some board game with "dollars" and buy me a few P100D's with that?
What you get in any contract is not like a computer program, 100% unambiguous and written in a programming language. That's why there are legal systems which rely on "reasonable interpretation" concept.
While I think if Tesla does it, it'll be shady as hell, I'm not convinced it'll be illegal, as there is no documents stating that you'd have free unlimited supercharging for life. I could be wrong, but it's the way I see it.
Tesla never delivered on many promises that were listed on the website, you don't see anyone winning court cases against them (though I guess no one really tried yet).
whitex
Well-Known Member
I'm not trying to pick on you, but:
Google Translate -
Tesla has reached a settlement with disgruntled owners
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